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Mat 04
19-12-05, 19:12
In a match yesterday, I gave Black a penalty for an offence (which I have forgotten), red captain decided he would mouth off, and not for the first time either I might add, so I advance the penalty 10m. Black team then take a quick penalty at the NEW penalty spot, and subsequently score a try. Please note, they did not take the penalty for the original offence, only the penalty on the new spot, which was a quick one.

Now, Im aware that a quick penalty cannot be taken if a penalty spot is advanced 10m in the case of the opponents not being 10m away in the first place but for some reason, something in my head made me think that Blacks could take the penalty quickly, but I was unsure why I thought that. I tried to justify my reasoning for this later by myself and I came up with these facts:

1) There was no "first" quick penalty, so why shouldn't they be allowed one due to me moving penaly spot.

2) It was a "new" offence (Is it in reality the case that 2 quick tap penalties can't be taken for 2 consecutive identical offences?)

Can someone help me? and can someone also direct me to where in the IRB Lawbook it even states about the "no 2 quickly taken penalties"?

Thanks, Mat

OB..
19-12-05, 20:12
Mat - it is not in the law book. It is guidance from above.

The argument is that a player cannot take the penalty until the referee has told him where the mark is (or you might call him back), and the referee should not be in too much of a hurry to indicate it. That prevents the chaos that arises when everybody is trying to remember who was where from each of the two penalty marks. However they can still take a tap kick if they want.

In your case I infer that you had marched steadily forward and then indicated the new mark. No problem.

ex-lucy
19-12-05, 20:12
what OB says is how it was explained to me by an advisor ... blow for a 2nd pen but walk slowly and tell black 9 not to take it until you have made the mark.
But i would have slowed it down more by calling red capt over for a chat and explain about sanctions and discipline standards etc.... try and take heat out of situation.

threegatesexpress
20-12-05, 00:12
I think that the "no quick tap from an advanced penalty" comes from the Continuum, i.e. U12s and below.

OB..
20-12-05, 00:12
It may have originated in the Continuum, but it is definitely the recommended approach at all levels now. (In England, anyway.)

Deeps
20-12-05, 03:12
It may have originated in the Continuum, but it is definitely the recommended approach at all levels now. (In England, anyway.)


...and has been for at least a couple of seasons, however, you may find it useful to explain to a skipper whose team is showing tardiness in retiring that this 'word from on high' is not enshrined in law and is at your discretion.

Simon Thomas
20-12-05, 11:12
OB

Going back to Matt's original posting, a player or skipper even mouthing off can often be a deliberate ploy to slow things down (I did it frequently when playing as a gobby scrum-half / skipper). The refereeing advice I have been given in the past and now give as an adviser, is to get on with it, walk the 10m quickly and make the new mark, telling them as I walk that I will will discuss at next breaksdown, but I am not stopping now and thus remove the attacking side's continuity.

I am not aware of it being a formally recommended approach at all levels to always delay or slow down a second extra 10m FK or PK.
Yes, it has become accepted practice at lower League and Youth levels recently. But it certainly isn't the case for either our Federation or Society Development Squad training meetings.

Yes it may be appropriate in light of the level of a game, referee management of violent or persistance offences (which could always be handled at next beakdown after the second FK/PK has been taken), or to yellow card a player for not retiring 10m and deliberately tackling or pulling back (which does need to be done immediately).

At level 6 and 7 players and coaches expectations in my experience are that they can go the second time as fast as they wish to, so I walk and make the new mark quickly (unless I have one of the above) and the defending side expect to be moving back fast into defensive positions at the second 10m. This is especially so in 22m red zone situations.

didds
20-12-05, 11:12
But i would have slowed it down more by calling red capt over for a chat and explain about sanctions and discipline standards etc.... try and take heat out of situation.


Hmmm. Tactical ref abuse looms on the horizon with this one then.

e.g. red awarded a PK with a 5 man overlap out left. Just as SH goes to take tap black player appriases situation and shouts out some abuse. Ref blows whistle, stops game and has a word with black. Ref makes mark - and black now have a perfect defensive wall.

Equity. Let Red take the 2nd tap from the new mark (OR BEHIND IT OF COURSE ;-) and play on. The abuse can be dealt with while the kicker tees up the conversion.

didds

ex-lucy
20-12-05, 11:12
didds, i have just read Simon Thomas. He has made some good points and i am seriously re-thinking my approach to the situation now. thanks.

Mat 04
20-12-05, 17:12
Hmm, wish I could find some official info about this, seems cloudy.

On top of that I forgot to mention that the black player who took the penalty was never ahead of me, he didnt run forward, he took the penalty closer to the original penalty mark than the newer one, which is legite Im sure.


So lets try summarise this..

It is good practice to not allow second penalty to be taken until opponents are 10m?

It is at referees discretion whether to allow a 2nd penalty to be taken quickly?

OB..
20-12-05, 19:12
It is good practice to not allow second penalty to be taken until opponents are 10m?
Not quite. You do not let the opposition dictate your pace. However unless you sprint, they should have sufficient time to get back. But you do not wait for them.


It is at referees discretion whether to allow a 2nd penalty to be taken quickly?Depends on your definition of "quickly". As soon as you have indicated the mark the penalty may be taken. However they should not take it before you have made the mark.

didds
20-12-05, 22:12
Depends on your definition of "quickly". As soon as you have indicated the mark the penalty may be taken. However they should not take it before you have made the mark.

... even if you had made the mark for the FIRST penalty already? (thining of the tactical ref abuse scenario)

didds

Davet
21-12-05, 14:12
Laws 21.7 and 21.8, in the Penalty clause at the end of each section, provide the legal authority for the ref to award a second kick 10m in front of the original mark. They also provide that this second kick may not be taken until the referee has made the mark "indicating the place of the kick". Although (in common with many places) the wording could be improved it is clear - when read in conjunction with the directive issued in the late 90s that the referee should not make the second mark quickly - that it is this second mark that is referred to.

To comply with the iRB instructions I normally don't run to the second mark but walk - not slowly - and they can go as soon as my heel touches the ground.

robertti
21-12-05, 16:12
I think what has already been said on this topic is very sensible, and I agree with most of it.

In my experiences, if you need to award a second penalty obviously according to the laws it cannot be taken until the referee 'indicates the place of the new mark.' So why can a refere just point to the mark and say take it from there, instead of walking up to the mark. Isnt pointing indicating as well. This would allow the game to be sped up. Of course if the referee was deliberately trying to slow down the game in his management strategy then fair enough, walk up to the mark? By whats to stop the referee using the other method if he sees fit?

didds
21-12-05, 17:12
... but does the award of a 2nd penalty preclude the awarded team the opportunity to take the 1st penalty from the mark 1st made - and possibly before the ref has made the mark for the 2nd?

didds

Davet
21-12-05, 17:12
They can take it from where the first mark was - but NOT until the second mark has been made.

And the Law does not JUST say "indicate the place of the kick" it says "...made the mark indicating the place of the kick". So pointing won't do, they have to wait till the ref makes the second mark.

didds
21-12-05, 19:12
so tactical referee abuse is available after all? The few seconds walking to the next mark may be enough to cover that overlap...

oh bummer.

didds

Deeps
21-12-05, 20:12
That is why it is not specified in law. Tactical referee abuse between marks might send the referee scurrying a little quicker, the speed being directly proportional to the degree of abuse.

I am fairly quick to warn a team on the second occasion of not retiring and thereafter even quicker to find a yellow card on the next occasion. It is a professional foul as I see it and don't see why it shouldn't be dealt with swiftly and harshly.

Davet
21-12-05, 23:12
Deeps - agreed. the iRB ruling was mainly to try to curb the likes of Dawson who would take the 2nd one almost as soon as the whistle went - but even though, as I remember it the ruling was that refs should not hurry; I can walk quite fast when the occasion arises.

Simon Thomas
22-12-05, 10:12
I tend to forget how many steps I have taken on pacing out second FK/PK 10 m when getting tactical requests for penalty reasons and explanations.

Message gets across very fast !

tim White
22-12-05, 12:12
You need your 'Game Management' hat on at this point. Are the infringing team trying to slow the game down by retreating slowly away from the mark, are you likely to inflame matters by allowing another quick tap and hence an almost certain yellow card -more important in attacking 22. Watch for 'tappers' deliberately running into retreating players hoping for another 10m or even the yellow card for the player not 10m.

Tricky situation at times, try to gauge equity as well as law in this area.

Mike Whittaker
22-12-05, 19:12
I tend to forget how many steps I have taken on pacing out second FK/PK 10 m when getting tactical requests for penalty reasons and explanations.

Message gets across very fast !

As I recall one Morts saying, "You keep talking and I'll keep walking..." Once saw him walk about 30 metres ... amazing effect on team.

ex-lucy
23-12-05, 14:12
"You keep talking and I'll keep walking..." infers that this ref gave a few 10m pens rather than the extra 10m ... is this true?
is that possible ?
i think i remember playing a match about 15 years ago ... where we got awarded a pen, then 10m, then another, then another etc ... before we knew it we were on their try line ... and scored.

Deeps
23-12-05, 14:12
ex-lucy I think you will find that the referee in question lost all track of distance and as long as he was being addressed just kept walking towards the goal line. When the earache stopped he assumed that was a good enough place to award the mark.