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drew
05-03-09, 00:03
I could not find clarification . . .

attacking team awarded a free kick is taken, a player drop kicks over the the posts from 40m out without the opposition touching the ball. the ball goes through the posts and across the dead ball line.

obviously no points awarded but where/what is the restart?

22 m drop out?
or option to non-kicking team of 22m drop out or scrum where drop kick was taken?

thanks

The umpire
05-03-09, 00:03
As it was not allowed to be a drop-kick for a goal, it must be plain and simply kicked dead, so it'll be the option to non-kicking team of 22m drop out or scrum where drop kick was taken. IMHO

Dickie E
05-03-09, 01:03
I'm pretty sure it is a 22 only - no scrum option. But I will no doubt be re-calibrated in due course.

OB..
05-03-09, 02:03
We have been round this before, without any clear decision IIRC.

View (1): since you cannot score a drop goal, it makes no sense to talk of an attempted drop goal. It should therefore be treated like a punt. Offer the option.

View (2): it is clearly an attempt, that is defeated merely by the law, so it should be treated as an unsuccessful attempt. Drop out.

There used to be a well-known legal conundrum: can you commit attempted murder if the intended victim is already dead? The Criminal Attempts Act 1981 has now resolved this:
"A person may be guilty of attempting to commit an offence to which this section applies even though the facts are such that the commission of the offence is impossible."

I do not wish to apply that principle here. I do not see why there is an exemption for drop goals anyway, so I argue for View (1).

Ian_Cook
05-03-09, 10:03
As it was not allowed to be a drop-kick for a goal, it must be plain and simply kicked dead, so it'll be the option to non-kicking team of 22m drop out or scrum where drop kick was taken. IMHO

Yep, I agree with this one, and with OB.

There is no sanction for attempting a drop kick after a FK, the Law werely says you cannot take one, so it has to be treated as if it was a punt.

Scrum, defending team feed, either at the centre of the 22 or where the ball was kicked from.


Actually, I saw a very clever tactic once (which OB would probably define as "sharp practice") where a player did appear to attempt a DG almost immediately after a free kick. The defence went to sleep as they watched the ball going between the posts, and thinking they had just conceded three points, they allowed it to bounce only to have an attacking player following up from behind the kicker, grounding the bouncing ball for a try.

The defending team's lack of awareness and poor knowledge of the LotG cost them seven instead!

Deeps
05-03-09, 12:03
Actually, I saw a very clever tactic once (which OB would probably define as "sharp practice") where a player did appear to attempt a DG almost immediately after a free kick. The defence went to sleep as they watched the ball going between the posts, and thinking they had just conceded three points, they allowed it to bounce only to have an attacking player following up from behind the kicker, grounding the bouncing ball for a try.

The defending team's lack of awareness and poor knowledge of the LotG cost them seven instead!

That's a good one Ian and one you would have to allow as well though explaining it to the defending side skipper could take you the rest of the match.

Padster
05-03-09, 12:03
Excellent tactical awareness.:)

Ian_Cook
06-03-09, 07:03
That's a good one Ian and one you would have to allow as well though explaining it to the defending side skipper could take you the rest of the match.



Excellent tactical awareness


Actually, I'm glad I wasn't the referee. It was a local club match a few years back. He had the Law book out over a beer at the after match, and they still weren't convinced.

chopper15
06-03-09, 22:03
You can't attempt a dropped kick at goal, so what about a place kick?

By that I mean, a player places the ball on the ground about a metre back from the spot and a team mate attempts to kick it over the bar from where it lays;
i) it goes over ii) it misses and goes dead.

gillburt
06-03-09, 23:03
21.6 (a) says a goal cannot be kicked from a free kick.
21.4 (d) says you cannot place kick for touch.

So, if he lined up as described.... preventative ref would say "oi, what you doing".

If he persisted, some refs might ping and award a penalty to the oppo for deliberately breaking laws, others might award a scrum (oppo put-in) at the place of the mark.

Either way, I don't think that the two resulting scenarios you describe are relevant as there is a breach of (potentially) two laws first.
I list both because a place kick suggests a kick for goal (breach of 21.6(a)) and the player then cannot claim to have been going for touch as that's a breach of 21.4(d).

YMMV

OB..
07-03-09, 01:03
3 years ago, Doug Flutie drop kicked an extra point (=conversion) in the NFL. Is there any reason why the standard NFL place kick technique should not be used in rugby? I can't think of one.

It might not make sense, but neither does a drop kick in the NFL.

David J.
07-03-09, 03:03
A place kick for goal in open play is not a valid method for scoring under the laws. 9.A.1

Ian_Cook
07-03-09, 05:03
A place kick for goal in open play is not a valid method for scoring under the laws. 9.A.1

Yep!. Good enough for me, I'll run with that one!

OB..
07-03-09, 13:03
Agreed. Eliminated by omission.

chopper15
07-03-09, 19:03
Drop kick: The ball is dropped from the hand or hands to the ground and kicked as it rises from its first bounce.

Place kick: The ball is kicked after it has been placed on the ground for that purpose.

Goal: A player scores a goal by kicking the ball over an opponents’ cross bar and between the goal posts from the field of play, by a place-kick or drop-kick. A goal cannot be scored from a kick-off, drop-out or free-kick.

So, if a player can score a goal from a drop kick in general play, what law actually prevents a player from scoring a goal from placing the ball on the ground for that purpose . . . even if it's a FK?

OB..
07-03-09, 19:03
It is not mentioned as a method of scoring in Law 9.

The "field goal", as it was called, was legal until 1905, though it never happened in an international and rarely in other play.

chopper15
07-03-09, 20:03
It is not mentioned as a method of scoring in Law 9.

The "field goal", as it was called, was legal until 1905, though it never happened in an international and rarely in other play.

Understood, OB, thanks.


A 'goal', referred to on its own, used to be the total points ie try+conversion. Is this still so?

OB..
07-03-09, 20:03
A 'goal', referred to on its own, used to be the total points ie try+conversion. Is this still so?
It is still common usage, but no longer in the laws.

At one time the law referred to "a try" and "a goal from a try (the try not also to count)", and then in 1978 it changed to "try" and "goal sored after a try". Final in the 2000 re-write they called it a "conversion goal".

Russ W
17-03-09, 19:03
If a drop goal is not allowed as an option at a free kick, would any of you consider its illegal attempt a knock-on? The ball comes forward from the hand and meets the ground and it could be argued that it should not be looked at as an attempt at a drop-kick.

Here's another... if the ball is knocked forward, but kicked by the offending player as the ball rebounds, even metres in front of where it was fumbled, would you consider it to be a drop kick? Would the ball have to go generally in the direction of the posts?

Davet
17-03-09, 19:03
During a theoretical discussion there can be a temptation to stretch the letter of the law to the point of breaking all sense - and we do thatb on here quite regularly. In practice I think calling a drop kick a knock on would be one of those.

And anyway one can legally drop kick a ball without intending to score - so the act is not in and of itself illegal.

Trying to rescue a dropped ball by pretending it was a kick attempt is a common ploy, and generally gets short shrift. Common sense and pragmatism trump the written word every time.

Phil E
18-03-09, 00:03
On the subject of the last three posts:

Player attempts to kick the ball forward in open play, as the ball leaves his hands he is tackled and the ball falls to the floor in front of him.

I gave a knock on as the ball had gone forward.

Opposition claimed he was tackled without the ball. My opinion on that was that he was in possession of the ball as the ball was under his control, between his hand and foot and it was only the tackle that caused it not to meet the foot and be dislodged going forward.

Thoughts?

andyscott
18-03-09, 00:03
On the subject of the last three posts:

Player attempts to kick the ball forward in open play, as the ball leaves his hands he is tackled and the ball falls to the floor in front of him.

I gave a knock on as the ball had gone forward.

Opposition claimed he was tackled without the ball. My opinion on that was that he was in possession of the ball as the ball was under his control, between his hand and foot and it was only the tackle that caused it not to meet the foot and be dislodged going forward.

Thoughts?

Correct - Knock on.

Davet
18-03-09, 01:03
Player is committed to the tackle - same as with calls for a late tackle, play on. Which leaves us with the knock on.

Correct call

Simon Thomas
18-03-09, 12:03
Tackled in the act of kicking - knock on (well thrown-forward if we are being precise).

Play on, advantage.

chopper15
18-03-09, 14:03
During a theoretical discussion there can be a temptation to stretch the letter of the law to the point of breaking all sense - and we do thatb on here quite regularly.

Drop kick: The ball is dropped from the hand or hands to the ground
and kicked as it rises from its first bounce.

Who decided that the ball-carrier had to kick the ball on the rise, anyhow?

SH turns, bounce the ball in front of the FH who kicks it over. :hap:

Davet
18-03-09, 14:03
Chopper, you're really getting the hang of this.

Next we can talk about the number of angels capable of dancing on a pinhead - though we need to sort out the volume of the angels - which may well involve a discussion of whether they are waves or particles - and the size of pin involved.

You start the discussion and I will follow it with interest.

Honestly.

OB..
18-03-09, 14:03
Drop kick: The ball is dropped from the hand or hands to the ground
and kicked as it rises from its first bounce.

Who decided that the ball-carrier had to kick the ball on the rise, anyhow?

SH turns, bounce the ball in front of the FH who kicks it over. :hap:
"Bounce"? The law says "drop".

But that is indeed an example of playing verbal games just for the fun of it. The dropkick is one of the few features of the modern game that predeccessors of WWE would readily recognise.

Simon Thomas
18-03-09, 14:03
Drop kick: The ball is dropped from the hand or hands to the ground and kicked as it rises from its first bounce.

Who decided that the ball-carrier had to kick the ball on the rise, anyhow?

SH turns, bounce the ball in front of the FH who kicks it over. :hap:

Been tried both for re-starts - Fiji I think bounced ball on long side and volleyed it. Come back and do it correctly was the refs call.

Never seen it done by different player, but that is excluded by the Law definition given above.

It has to be ball-carrier that drops the ball form his hands to the ground and kicks it as it rises on first bounce - not after it has risen. Pretty specific and understandable to me.

chopper15
18-03-09, 15:03
Been tried both for re-starts - Fiji I think bounced ball on long side and volleyed it. Come back and do it correctly was the refs call.

Never seen it done by different player, but that is excluded by the Law definition given above.

It has to be ball-carrier that drops the ball form his hands to the ground and kicks it as it rises on first bounce - not after it has risen. Pretty specific and understandable to me.



Come on. Simon, play the game properly.:nono:

It's not excluded by the LoG's definitive wording. So your claim that it's 'Pretty specific and understandable' is contradictory. :clap:

Simon Thomas
18-03-09, 15:03
all very clear to me

dave_clark
18-03-09, 16:03
Who decided that the ball-carrier had to kick the ball on the rise, anyhow?



Jesus, probably.

chopper15
18-03-09, 16:03
Jesus, probably.

Jesus who?

dave_clark
18-03-09, 16:03
Jesus, son of God, and our Lord and Saviour.

SimonSmith
18-03-09, 16:03
Definitions: "Drop kick: The ball is dropped from the hand or hands to the ground
and kicked as it rises from its first bounce."

What you're proposing, Chopper, isn't a "drop" goal; it's a "pass" goal. Dropping implies that the ball is, well, dropped in proximity to the body. If it goes any further that close proximity then it ceases to have been dropped and has been propelled, which is a very different thing.

All of which is a really long way of saying: What ST said.

Simon Thomas
18-03-09, 16:03
I was at Jesus and we had nothing to do with the drop kick definitions. We did however found the Barbarians through a Jesus rugby player called William Percy Carpmael !

But they run and pass not kick of course, so would have no interest in the drop kick.

chopper15
18-03-09, 16:03
Why is everyone assuming the ball is always propelled fwd when a punt or drop is kicked?

The ball is often palmed vertically to the ground with one hand or simply dropped without going fwd.

So, if the tackle took place in those circumstances or, indeed, if he was running laterally, what would the decision be?

chopper15
18-03-09, 16:03
Originally Posted by Davet
During a theoretical discussion there can be a temptation to stretch the letter of the law to the point of breaking all sense - and we do thatb on here quite regularly.


I wasn't proposing anything, SimonS, I was simply responding to Davet's comment.:sad:

dave_clark
18-03-09, 16:03
So, if the tackle took place in those circumstances or, indeed, if he was running laterally, what would the decision be?

play on, obviously :rolleyes:

Simon Thomas
18-03-09, 16:03
Why is everyone assuming the ball is always propelled fwd when a punt or drop is kicked?

The ball is often palmed vertically to the ground with one hand or simply dropped without going fwd.

So, if the tackle took place in those circumstances or, indeed, if he was running laterally, what would the decision be?

Chopper an interesting point - quite correct for lateral running kicker, and also for a SH who is stepping back to box kick.

But for Drop Kicks I am not so sure. In my playing career I took hundreds and hundreds of restart and 22 metre (and 25 yard) drop kicks, as well as numerous open play efforts for 3 points (sorry OB !). These days I run summer kicking clinics and coach players to drop kick.
The best practice technique involves a step forward and kick through a small focussed space, into which the ball has been dropped sometimes straight down but normally with a slight forward momentum.

In practice on the pitch most referees would I suspect give a throw forward (or knock on). The kicker should have got the ball away quicker !

andyscott
18-03-09, 16:03
no no no guys,

Surely you should give a knock on no matter where the ball goes.

I always give a knock on even if it goes backwards.

chopper15
18-03-09, 17:03
play on, obviously :rolleyes:

Let's up the stakes, gentlemen.

An attempted grubber just short of the goal-line. Ball dropping vertically player tackled from side. Decision?

Would I be correct in assuming that refs would allow play to continue, or act accordingly, if they were satisfied the ball hadn't gone fwd?

TheBFG
18-03-09, 17:03
Nah! knock on!

and i'd be very suprised if most on here didn't agree

dave_clark
18-03-09, 17:03
Let's up the stakes, gentlemen.

An attempted grubber just short of the goal-line. Ball dropping vertically player tackled from side. Decision?

Would I be correct in assuming that refs would allow play to continue, or act accordingly, if they were satisfied the ball hadn't gone fwd?

well, yes. we do try not to blow the whistle willy nilly you know.

chopper15
18-03-09, 18:03
well, yes. we do try not to blow the whistle willy nilly you know.

So, assuming you were satisfied it didn't go fwd, Dave, your decision?

Or do you whole-heartedly agree with, BFG, and t'ell with the rest of them?:hap:

dave_clark
18-03-09, 18:03
play on, and then penalty for the dissent when it came :D

Russ W
18-03-09, 18:03
play on, and then penalty for the dissent when it came :D

I'm with Dave on this one. I'd call "straight down--play on" or "backward--play on". If the players don't play to the whistle then shame on them... especially with the try line so close!

Phil E
18-03-09, 20:03
"Knock on"

"But it didn't go forward"

"I'll do a deal with you, you don't drop it, I wont call knock on!"

chopper15
18-03-09, 22:03
. . . . Not fwd. No KO/TF. Tackled without the ball. Certain try.

Proud of them, OB.? :sad:

Phil E
18-03-09, 22:03
. . . . Not fwd. No KO/TF. Tackled without the ball. Certain try.

Proud of them, OB.? :sad:

If you can't wind us up with the question, you'll try to wind us up some other way, eh Chopper?

If you made pasties they would be bitter!

Simon Thomas
18-03-09, 22:03
Isn't it fun in la-la land ?

SimonSmith
18-03-09, 23:03
Foul play law: Late-charging the kicker. A player must not intentionally
charge or obstruct an opponent who has just kicked the ball.

The implication is clear: tackling an opponent in the act of kicking the ball IS permissible, assuming it complies with the rest of the foul play laws.

Dixie
19-03-09, 11:03
There's no possibility of a PK for tackling the man without the ball. As he attempts to kick it, he is in full control (and thus possession) of the ball.

To BFG's point, momentum being what it is, there is very little chance of a player running forward being able to drop the ball effectivly backwards (i.e. straight down) in order to kick it. It would bounce off a knee or a thigh. Almost certainly as knock-on if he's tackled mid-grubber.

Davet
19-03-09, 14:03
no no no guys,

Surely you should give a knock on no matter where the ball goes.

I always give a knock on even if it goes backwards.

really?

Why?

Or is this just bait?

andyscott
19-03-09, 16:03
really?

Why?

Or is this just bait?

Bait, but no one took it :(

I'll get me coat :Looser: