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Gracie
07-03-09, 09:03
I've experienced this situation a few times recently and would value some clarification. Line out is formed wih 6 to 8 jumpers, red side throws in and their guy taps back towards scrum half only to find a couple of blue players already coming through to intercept/'muller' the SH. For me this is offside, unless the blue players jumped fairly and simply landed on the red side. I have taken to watching this very carefully becuase whilst on occasion the player may have reasonably say they have landed on red side following a jump, too often no attempt at a jump was made and this was a deliberate attempt to disrupt, thus penalty.

Your views welcome

Padster
07-03-09, 10:03
Players can jump up but not into the oppositions side. They are deliberately going through the line.

gillburt
07-03-09, 10:03
I'd say they're offside based upon your description.

There are so many laws they are possibly breaching that it would take too long to list them.

The offside line is LoT until the ball is thrown in, and then it is the ball.

19.12 and 19.13 are your keystones here as is 19.8 (b)

ctrainor
07-03-09, 11:03
Vary your positioning Gracie to the back of the line as well as front.
also ping em, you cleary think they were offside so penalty for going through the line of touch.

Gracie
07-03-09, 13:03
Many thanks for your thoughts guys - much appreciated

Davet
07-03-09, 19:03
opposition can't go through the line until the ball is moved away from LO

Dixie
07-03-09, 22:03
opposition can't go through the line until the ball is moved away from LOSpot on. But with a tap back, it can hard to decide when the breakaways can breakaway from the line. If the tap was good and hard and the SH gets creamed, almost certainly offside. But a soft, loopy pop back may put SH in legitimate trouble. Teams are usually better advised at the levels I ref to bring the jumper to ground and delay the tap; there's no downside, and plenty of upside as the defence have to respect the offside line at the ball.

Dickie E
07-03-09, 22:03
Spot on. But with a tap back, it can hard to decide when the breakaways can breakaway from the line. If the tap was good and hard and the SH gets creamed, almost certainly offside. But a soft, loopy pop back may put SH in legitimate trouble. Teams are usually better advised at the levels I ref to bring the jumper to ground and delay the tap; there's no downside, and plenty of upside as the defence have to respect the offside line at the ball.

very easy to tell if the ref is standing in zipper position :biggrin:

Dixie
07-03-09, 23:03
very easy to tell if the ref is standing in zipper position :biggrin: I'd still find it hard. Can the defence go as soon as the ball is passed off the top, or after it has gone 1m? Genuine question - I don't know the answer. I've taken the view hitherto that once it leaves the jumper's hands it's out of the lineout - let me know if I've got this wrong.

KingsPE
07-03-09, 23:03
As a new referee I know that when I played open side flanker I was the worst cheat on the pitch (Not easy for me to admit as you may understand!!!)

If the referee pinged me, I didn't come through!

If this happens, I usually stand right NEXT TO the offending player at the next line out - I say that I saw him/her the last time and if he goes ear;y I've got him - always with a smile on my face. Usually, the guy plays ball.

This advice comes from a game I still remeber from some 20 years ago - the ref did the same to me then!

Worked for me as a player and is now working for me as a referee.

Terrible to say on such a forum but, if you think the back row are cheating, they probably are (and will proably be proud that you noticed - I know I always was).

(By the way - to a large extent, this post is sent with my tongue firmly lodges in my cheek!!!!)

KingsPE
07-03-09, 23:03
I'd still find it hard. Can the defence go as soon as the ball is passed off the top, or after it has gone 1m? Genuine question - I don't know the answer. I've taken the view hitherto that once it leaves the jumper's hands it's out of the lineout - let me know if I've got this wrong.

Sorry to be boring but there are 6 occasions when the line ends (no law book on me so opening myself up for abuse here):

1 - when the ball is passed, tapped or kicked
2 - when a player with the ball moves from the line of touch
3 - when the balls goes over 15m line
4 - the the balls goes 'back' into 5 m channel
5 - if a ruck/maul is formed, when the back foot crosses the line of touch

I know there is another one BUT cannot remember it -HELP.

In other words - they should NOT be coming through the line!

OB..
08-03-09, 01:03
KingsPE - click on LAWS at the top of the page and you will get the official text of the laws (pre-ELV).

Davet
08-03-09, 14:03
Teams are usually better advised at the levels I ref to bring the jumper to ground and delay the tap; there's no downside, and plenty of upside as the defence have to respect the offside line at the ball.

Ball tapped back fast off tbe top provides fast ball for the backs and has loads of upside, and a corollary - the downside is that you don't get fast ball.

One the ball is tapped away fron the Line of touch then the opposition can cross it.

Calls for concentration and observation by the ref - along with the other gazillion things he needs to do... that's what makes the game a challenge.

However, if the ref is stood to the ball throwing side at the front of the line,or at the back, he can see the tap, see the ball and see when the opposition come through the line. Opposition players cannot cross Line of Touch unless jumping for the ball - so if they come through at almost the same instant as the tap then it would be a reasonable assumption that they crossed the line early - and if they get ahead of the ball then they are offside anyway (19.9.a).