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TheBFG
22-03-09, 16:03
Please can someone point me to the right law for this scenario?

Black 10 kicks long chases his own kick, Red 15 kicks back chases his own kick, black 15 fields ball, gets tackled and looses the ball into touch (not forward).

Red 8 picks up the loose ball and takes a quick throw to red 6 who is immediately tackled by the returning black 10 (lazy bu66er).

Black 10 offside, right:chin: ? As he’s not part of the lineout, so he needs to be 10m back, but do red forgo the offside law as they’ve taken the QT.

Hope that makes sense???

OB..
22-03-09, 16:03
There is no 10 metre law at a quick throw in.

Black 10 was put offside when Black 15 played the ball behind him, but then we have the perennial question as to whether or not the ball going into touch negates all offsides. The law does not say.

If a player ahead of the kicker moves forward in order to prevent a QT, then my view is that he infringed BEFORE the ball went into touch, and so he can be penalised.

However in this case Black 10 can be presumed to be returning as normal ie not moving forward in contravention of law 11.1 (c), and so I would not regard him as offside after a QT by the opposition. They have played him on-side.

TheBFG
22-03-09, 17:03
However in this case Black 10 can be presumed to be returning as normal ie not moving forward in contravention of law 11.1 (c), and so I would not regard him as offside after a QT by the opposition. They have played him on-side.

does it make any difference that he is beyond the line of touch, so not even starting from "his side". The fact that he is returning i guess is correct, but is he on-side due to red taking the QT?

11.8 PUTTING ONSIDE A PLAYER RETIRING DURING A
RUCK, MAUL, SCRUM OR LINEOUT
When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside
and is retiring as required by law remains offside even when the
opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or
lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the
applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no
action of that player's team mates can put the offside player
onside.
If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by
the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:
Opponent runs 5 meters with ball. When an opponent
carrying the ball has run 5 meters, the offside player is put onside.
An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the
ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action
does not put the offside player onside.
Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside
player is put onside.

is this not where this applies, but is it different for a QT, if so under which law??

triage
22-03-09, 19:03
I am with BFG on this one. I am unaware of any law that contradicts the offside law when applied to QT's. QT's have been around for quite a long time so this would have surely been written in law if it was the case that they negate the offside.

ctrainor
22-03-09, 19:03
I've been troubled by this myself, the team electing to take a QT can take it anywhere back fromt actual line of touch and throw it backwards. I don't beleive there are any offside laws at this point.
It's a gamble to take QT.

chopper15
22-03-09, 20:03
Is a QT classed as a LO? If not there can't be a LoT, surely.

OB..
22-03-09, 21:03
I am with BFG on this one. I am unaware of any law that contradicts the offside law when applied to QT's. QT's have been around for quite a long time so this would have surely been written in law if it was the case that they negate the offside.
Law 19.2 (a) A player may take a quick throw in without waiting for a lineout to form.

In other words, a QT is not a lineout, so the law already covers the point: there is no "applicable offside line" as required by Law 11.8.

I believe chopper15 and ctrainor are correct.

TheBFG
22-03-09, 22:03
So, pinging the Black 10 for offside was wrong :o

everyone was fine with it and the only one that questioned it was the black 10, like they say, be confident with your decision and nobody questions it.

Ah well, they won anyway!

thanks OB,

it just looked all wrong, the lazy 10 coming back so late, should have been "out of the game":chin:

Deeps
23-03-09, 00:03
So, pinging the Black 10 for offside was wrong :o

everyone was fine with it and the only one that questioned it was the black 10, like they say, be confident with your decision and nobody questions it.

Ah well, they won anyway!

thanks OB,

it just looked all wrong, the lazy 10 coming back so late, should have been "out of the game":chin:

The line of touch only comes into play when the lineout is formed. If the team due to throw in appear to be considering a quick throw then I see no reason why onside opposition players ahead of what might become the line of touch should not be allowed to cover it.

I consider that a player remains offside until he is put or puts himself onside regardless as to whether the ball has gone into touch or not. At a quick throw the minimal amount of time that the ball remains out of play makes this situation virtually continuous dynamic play which is why the quick throw exists in Law. A lazy runner, even if not offside in the accepted sense of the ball having been made dead, might be considered guilty of unsportsmanlike play if he interferes. I think offside sticks purely as he has not been played or put onside from the last play.

David J.
23-03-09, 04:03
Is a QT classed as a LO? If not there can't be a LoT, surely.
Nope...I only have the pre-ELV LOTG on my computer at the moment, but the LoT is mentioned

19.2(e):
At a quick throw in, if the player does not throw the ball in straight
so that it travels at least 5 metres along the line of touch before it
touches the ground or a player, or if the player steps into the field
of play when the ball is thrown, then the quick throw in is
disallowed.

and

Law 19 Definitions
"The line of touch is an imaginary line in the field of play at right angles to the touchline through the place where the ball is thrown in."



In this particular scenario, I think Black 10 has every right to participate in play. He was offsides, but Red 8 has passed it to Red 6, putting him onsides.

triage
23-03-09, 10:03
so what we are saying here is that if black 6 was injured in the 22 and having treatment and there was a QT on the 10 metre by red...black 6 gets up and red passes back into the 22 where black is now standing intercepts we should allow the try? and even though he is in an offside position you are saying he has not broken any offside laws?

Donal1988
23-03-09, 10:03
It doesnt have to travel along line of touch anymore. Under new laws players can throw the ball backwards at a quick lineout once it travels 5m

Dickie E
23-03-09, 11:03
so what we are saying here is that if black 6 was injured in the 22 and having treatment and there was a QT on the 10 metre by red...black 6 gets up and red passes back into the 22 where black is now standing intercepts we should allow the try?

yes (+ MSF)

chopper15
23-03-09, 12:03
What's MSF?

Dixie
23-03-09, 12:03
What's MSF? I think it's a type of manufactured wood that kitchen cabinets tend to be made from these days. Much beloved of Lawrence Llewellyn-Bowen. (or I could have my head up my own fundament, of course)

OB..
23-03-09, 13:03
I think it's a type of manufactured wood that kitchen cabinets tend to be made from these days. Much beloved of Lawrence Llewellyn-Bowen. (or I could have my head up my own fundament, of course)
You are thinking of MDF (medium density fibreboard).

Try one of these:-
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Not Kurt Weaver
23-03-09, 13:03
OB,

That post was brilliant. It was the first time I ever laughed while at the computer.

My kind of humor.

David J.
23-03-09, 14:03
so what we are saying here is that if black 6 was injured in the 22 and having treatment and there was a QT on the 10 metre by red...black 6 gets up and red passes back into the 22 where black is now standing intercepts we should allow the try? and even though he is in an offside position you are saying he has not broken any offside laws?

That's a different scenario that BFG's original one. But you'll find there's a difference of opinion on this amongst the referees here. The dominant feeling is that once the ball goes into touch, a player cannot be offsides from the play the preceded it. I'm in the minority view.

Simon Thomas
23-03-09, 15:03
In my experience at the higher levels of the Game, once the ball is in touch, offside lines are reset. At grassroots the referee needs to 'manage' matters.

In the injured player scenario, I would expect either for the line out to be set at l-o-t or more likely black 6 to be pinged.

triage
23-03-09, 16:03
In my experience at the higher levels of the Game, once the ball is in touch, offside lines are reset. At grassroots the referee needs to 'manage' matters.

In the injured player scenario, I would expect either for the line out to be set at l-o-t or more likely black 6 to be pinged.

that to me would make sense...however if as some are suggesting there are no offsides at a QT what do we ping him with...it would be open play? suely offside would have to exist to an extent?

Simon Thomas
23-03-09, 17:03
penalise him for being a flanker !

ungentlemanly / unsportsmanlike behaviour.

I recall when I was playing in the last century, we left the pitch if injured and rejoined at referee's permission once we were ready at a break in play and behind the ball.

lawsons
24-03-09, 10:03
My take on this is that the current method of defending a quick throw is for opposing players to mark the fullback, flyhalf etc until the lineout is formed. I'm assuming we are in agreement that this is ok. If then the ball in thrown in quickly behind these marking players, can they turn around and tackle that player who received the ball? I can't see why not. If so, then I don't see how you can penalise the slow retreating 10 in your example. The ball is open play and that was the option the side took when they threw the ball in. If they want the offside lines reset, they wait for the lineout.

Similarly regarding the injured player, if the player was not looking to play the ball or to interfere and received the ball then play on. If he looked to position himself or interfere with play - pinged for loitering.

I'm sure you'll see the below as well soon but quite interesting on a semi related topic :

Ruling Required
Team A moves the ball from right to left when the final pass to a colleague close to the
touchline is knocked on with the ball crossing the touchline. The non offending side
immediately take a quick throw. Please can you confirm the following two options can
take place:
1. Can a quick throw take place by the non offending team?
2. Has the non offending side the option of a throw in from the touch or scrum as a
means of restarting the match?
Ruling:
1. The Designated Members confirm that the quick throw cannot be taken as
advantage cannot be played after the ball is dead.
The Definition of dead on page (viii) of the IRB Law Book 2008 is The ball is out of
play.
2. The referee will award a scrum at the place of infringement in accordance with Law
12.1 (a).

Dickie E
24-03-09, 10:03
yes (+ MSF)

MSF = mandatory space filler. Required if post less than 5 characters.

chopper15
24-03-09, 12:03
MSF = mandatory space filler. Required if post less than 5 characters.

OB didn't list that one. :wow: