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breako
02-04-09, 15:04
Ok, a team throws a very short lineout.
It goes about 4.7 meters before the 1st lineout player grabs the ball.

His feet are still in the five when he jumps for it - is this ok?

What are ref tips for this one?

Thanks.

Donal1988
02-04-09, 15:04
Ball must travel 5 is how I referee it. Sure if you allow that why not throw it only 2m with man at front reaching.

I think Law 19.5 is pretty clear - so that it travels at least 5 metres
along the line of touch before it first touches the ground or
touches or is touched by a player.

Simon Thomas
02-04-09, 15:04
Was it deliberate ploy or accidental due to over-enthusiam.

If the former - FK at 15m, if the latter a few nice words to let the ball go 5m in future and scrum it down, as per a not-straight.

TheBFG
02-04-09, 16:04
Ball must travel 5 is how I referee it. Sure if you allow that why not throw it only 2m with man at front reaching.

cos his arms would be 9ft long! :bday:

there would be no need he'd catch everything anyway! :wink:

Donal i'm with you, must cross the 5m line, but as a "past master" at the front of the line, you'd always want to be in front of your oppo, so reaching in front is the norm. As a ref now, as long as he's coming down on or very close to the 5m i'm happy, too many other things to be looking at to worry about that one!

Donal1988
02-04-09, 16:04
BFG I agree its not something I police strictly. But if it is clear to me that the throw isnt 5m then where he is standing when he caught it is irrelevant. But im not sure if id spot 4.7m :)

Dixie
02-04-09, 17:04
It should travel 5m, and if it doesn't, the catcher has gained an unfair advantage over his more scrupulous opponent. There's a fine line here between picky and accurate.

I watched a junior game where the ref stood in the "zipper" at the back of every lineout. Three times the ball was thrown to the front; three times he called it not 5m. He couldn't possibly see the action due to his positioning, and made up for his deficiency by penalising the unexpected. But if it actually had failed to hit the 5m mark, I would have had no issues with it being called.

Phil E
02-04-09, 17:04
His feet are still in the five when he jumps for it - is this ok?

Not sure what you mean by "still" in the five? His feet should not be in the five meter gap.

Davet
02-04-09, 18:04
I suspect he means the players feet were infield of the 5m line, but the ball had not yet reached the 5m line when it was caught. It can be marginal, feet a foot or so behind the linearms forward... or it can be obvious, feet right on the line, arms well forward, even a step into the channel.

It can be a difficult spot - but if spotted then it's either scrum or FK - depending basincally on your view of being either a deliberate ploy to take it early - preventing it travelling 5 = FK; or simply a timing cock-up, where the ball effectively failed to travel the 5m = scrum.

In the case above - for me 1 would be scrum, 3 would be FK and 2 probably FK but may depend on game and level. If I did deem it a scrum offence then I would have a quiet word about repeat acts - and options to scale up to PK for deliberate offences.

FlipFlop
02-04-09, 22:04
As I've said before, this is one of the few case where the position of the ball is the sole judge of where it is.

normally it is where the catcher is (in 22m, in touch, ingoal etc), but the line out is an anomoly where the position of the catcher is immaterial - he could be 15m infield but if his 10.5m long arms catch the ball short of the 5m line, it hasn't gone 5m.

But as an ex-front jumper - provided the jumper takes off from outside the 5m and lands outside the 5m, and the props stay outside the 5m, then I'm happy the ball has gone 5m.

Davet
03-04-09, 10:04
Generally, no jumping is involved - the ball goes to the front man - generally the player who is normally front lifter.

There are actually two common problems in this scenario -
1) Ball not 5
2) Throw not straight.

Often both together, as the hooker simply passes the ball to the front linout player as he step forward and starts to drive round, and then pops a quick, often forward, pass back out to hooker.

Three main problems ....

Spanish Inquisition - wher'd they come from:wink:

Phil E
03-04-09, 10:04
and then pops a quick, often forward, pass back out to hooker.

Huh! "a forward pass back" :confused: :chin:

Dixie
03-04-09, 10:04
Huh! "a forward pass back" :confused: :chin:Discussion on momentum, anyone?:drool:

chopper15
03-04-09, 12:04
What happens if the ball is thrown in short along the LoT and his front team man reaches over the 5m and flips it straight back; i) his side takes it? ii) opp. takes it?:hap:

Dixie
03-04-09, 12:04
What happens if the ball is thrown in short along the LoT and his front team man reaches over the 5m and flips it straight back; i) his side takes it? ii) opp. takes it?:hap: In both cases an infringement has taken place. The decision on whether or not to blow for it will depend upon whether the opposition were disadvantaged by it (they may have fielded two lineout players, both at the back with no realistic chance of contesting the ball). In the event that the oppo take the ball, they may well gain an advantage by the offence.

If we blow for it, we then need to determine sanction. This is complicated by the existence of two bits of law apparently covering the same offence, and providing two different sanctions.


19.9m - a lineout player must not prevent the ball being thrown in 5m: FK
19.5: The ball must be thrown straight, so that it travels at least 5 metres along the line of touch before it first touches the ground or touches or is touched by a player.

19.6(a) If the throw in at a lineout is incorrect, the opposing team has the
choice of throwing in at a lineout or a scrum on the 15-metre line.

Phil E
03-04-09, 12:04
What happens if the ball is thrown in short along the LoT and his front team man reaches over the 5m and flips it straight back; i) his side takes it? ii) opp. takes it?:hap:

Front man has prevented it from going 5m (assuming from your description that it would have travelled 5m if he hadn't intervened). FK. If the opposition gain the ball straight away then advantage might apply.

breako
03-04-09, 13:04
Front man has prevented it from going 5m (assuming from your description that it would have travelled 5m if he hadn't intervened). FK. If the opposition gain the ball straight away then advantage might apply.
Thanks for all replies. Most refs seem to ping this incorrect through. So it's scrum / lineout to other team.

However, could you pedandic and say well the throw would have been fine (gone 5), had it not been for the zealous behaviour of the 1st man who prevented going 5?

So should refs always been pinging this as FK rather than incorrect throw which they usually do?

comments welcomed...

Davet
03-04-09, 13:04
Huh! "a forward pass back" :confused: :chin:

Oh for goodness sake!

A pass back out to the hooker.

i.e. the hooker passed to him so he returns the pass (passes the ball back to) the hooker - who is outside him -i.e. nearer the touchline.

Since the catching player started nearer his own goal-line than the hooker he often has not overtaken the hooker - which makes the pass a foward one.

I just hoped that saying - a forward pass, back out to the hooker - would be understood by anyone who spoke English as a first language.

Davet
03-04-09, 13:04
Breako

In my view it's donw to the elemnt of deliberate act vs cockup.

If the player deliberately prevents (and I see the word prevent as implying intent) the ball going 5 then FK. If its simply a timing issue then I would probably tend to scrum down. If the non-throwers do it it is, in my view, more likely to be deliberate than if the throwing team does it - but it's all in the eye of the beholder.

OB..
03-04-09, 13:04
I just hoped that saying - a forward pass, back out to the hooker - would be understood by anyone who spoke English as a first language.
Of course they did. Hence the smiley.

Phil E
03-04-09, 14:04
Oh for goodness sake!

670 :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

chopper15
03-04-09, 16:04
With regard to advantage to my query, ‘What happens if the ball is thrown in short along the LoT and his front team man reaches over the 5m and flips it straight back.’

Phil, you qualified your answer that advantage might apply by assuming that it would have travelled 5m if he hadn't intervened.

Dixie’s answer to my query if the ball was thrown in short (ie. not 5m) was, may well gain an advantage.

The use of ‘might’ and ‘may’ do suggest an element of doubt.

Would the thrower/flipper combination have any influence on making a more positive decision with regard to playing advantage, particularly if it was enacted near the GL or at a crucial point in the game?

Davet
03-04-09, 18:04
The ball must travel 5m before it toches the ground or a player.

So your long armed flipper is acting illegally.

Advantage would apply in the normal way - ie if any accrues, good; if not, shoot the bugger at dawn.

Phil E
03-04-09, 18:04
With regard to advantage to my query, ‘What happens if the ball is thrown in short along the LoT and his front team man reaches over the 5m and flips it straight back.’

Phil, you qualified your answer that advantage might apply by assuming that it would have travelled 5m if he hadn't intervened.

Dixie’s answer to my query if the ball was thrown in short (ie. not 5m) was, may well gain an advantage.

The use of ‘might’ and ‘may’ do suggest an element of doubt.

Not exactly. You are trying to tie us down to an exact decision based on a verbal description. Because your description was incomplete (and couldn't really be anything else) we have to make some assumptions, or else say that we cant give a decision unless we see it.

chopper15
03-04-09, 20:04
Not exactly. You are trying to tie us down to an exact decision based on a verbal description. Because your description was incomplete (and couldn't really be anything else) we have to make some assumptions, or else say that we cant give a decision unless we see it.

I did actually state, Phil,What happens if the ball is thrown in short . . .

Never mind, thanks to you and Davet for having a go.:hap:

OB..
03-04-09, 20:04
I did actually state, Phil,What happens if the ball is thrown in short . . .
That necessarily means the ball hits the ground before the 5 metre line. Advantage can still be played.

chopper15
03-04-09, 20:04
[/I]
That necessarily means the ball hits the ground before the 5 metre line. Advantage can still be played.

and the other option . . . . falling short and flipped back by team mate also advantage?:hap:

OB..
03-04-09, 21:04
and the other option . . . . falling short and flipped back by team mate also advantage?:hap:
Yes..

Davet
04-04-09, 14:04
If the ball falls to ground before reaching the 5m line, then advantage against the throwing team, just for clarity. If the flipper is on the throwing team and his side gained possession then scrum down opposition ball.

If the flipper plays the ball before it touches the ground and before it crosses the 5m then he has played the ball inside the 5m. You could probably choose between scrum or line option, FK against him, or PK for offside at lineout.

Phil E
04-04-09, 14:04
If the ball falls to ground before reaching the 5m line, then advantage against the throwing team, just for clarity. If the flipper is on the throwing team and his side gained possession then scrum down opposition ball.

If the flipper plays the ball before it touches the ground and before it crosses the 5m then he has played the ball inside the 5m. You could probably choose between scrum or line option, FK against him, or PK for offside at lineout.

If flipper is playing I am going to send him off for not wearing boots or socks!

671

OB..
04-04-09, 16:04
If flipper is playing I am going to send him off for not wearing boots or socks!
On "A Question of Sport" some time ago, Will Greenwood was asked "Does a rugby player have to wear underwear?" He had no idea and decided to guess: "No". Sue Barker said he was wrong and quoted Law 4: A player wears a jersey, shorts and underwear, sock and boots.

I think the official answer was wrong. The Definition starts: "Players' clothing is anything a player wears." The part quoted merely identifies a basic set of kit, but does NOT mandate wearing it all - otherwise a lot of Fijians are playing illegally.

It is convenient to have those items listed since the law can then go on to talk about Additional or Banned items.

chopper15
04-04-09, 18:04
If the ball falls to ground before reaching the 5m line, then advantage against the throwing team, just for clarity. If the flipper is on the throwing team and his side gained possession then scrum down opposition ball.

If the flipper plays the ball before it touches the ground and before it crosses the 5m then he has played the ball inside the 5m. You could probably choose between scrum or line option, FK against him, or PK for offside at lineout.

That answer is appreciated, Davet. Thanks.