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ex-lucy
16-01-06, 19:01
red team with ball over their own try line ...
red 10 kicks. ball goes back into 22 area from try area.
Blue 7 charges down the kick and ball moves back into the try area.
Blue 6 (lying on the floor in the try area) jumps up and falls on ball.

ref awards try ..... spouting "no offside in try area"

correct?

ExHookah
16-01-06, 20:01
Can you clarify how far the ball travels before it's charged down. I can't tell from your description, but there's got to be a line drawn somewhere to determine a chargedown from a knockon.

Regarding the "no offside ingoal", my gut feeling is that the guy was offside because the chargedown occurred outside the ingoal area.

As always I'm interested to hear interpretations from other guys.

Darren
16-01-06, 22:01
Wrong decision i think. Clearly Offside. Law 11.1 plus failure to comply 11.4

A player who is in an off-side position is liable to penalty only if the player
does one of three things:
Interferes with play or,
Moves forward, towards the ball or
Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).
A player who is in an off-side position is not automatically penalised.
A player who receives an unintentional throw-forward is not off-side.
A player can be off-side in the in-goal.

OB..
17-01-06, 00:01
Here is the definition of a charge down, from Law 12:
Charge down. If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or
immediately after the kick, ...

From the description it seems unlikely that it was a charge down.

In any case, you can be offside from a charge down if you are in front of a team-mate who last played the ball. (Law 11).

While it is true that some offside lines disappear in in-goal (scrum, ruck, maul), it is not true that there is no offside at all.

I agree with Darren - wrong decision.

robertti
17-01-06, 14:01
But then at the same time in general play, how come it is common practise that referees will allow a player to pick up the ball when he is in front of a teammate who last charged it down?

You could argue that the above is simply general play and that the player was not offside.

tim White
17-01-06, 15:01
It is not common practise round here to allow players in front of the 'charge down' to pick up the ball.

As I understand it the charge down from a kick is allowed and simply not regarded as a knock on. All other laws apply.:confused:

Bryan
17-01-06, 16:01
You could argue that the above is simply general play and that the player was not offside.

Ahh, but then I believe one must adhere to Law 11: Offside/Onside in general play found here (http://www.irb.com/NR/rdonlyres/CBD6F631-33A4-4B00-87AF-946AECDF671D/0/11offside.pdf)!

Definition:

In general play a player is off-side if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball. [my emphasis]


ref awards try ..... spouting "no offside in try area"

As Darren makes reference to above:
Law 11.1a. A player can be off-side in the goal area

I think that covers it. Penalty to non-offending team at place of infringement would be the correct decision in my mind.
-Bryan

OB..
17-01-06, 17:01
robertti - I think you are remembering the situation where a player is not offside under the 10 metre law.

Scenario: Red 9 passes to Red 10, who kicks. Blue 7 charges down the kick which goes to Red 9. He picks up the ball. Law 11.4 (f) tells us:

The 10-Metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not 'waiting to play the ball' and the team-mate is onside.

Red 9 has been played onside by Blue 7.

Deeps
17-01-06, 17:01
As a general comment with reference to offside, I do find it difficult to award a penalty in the case where, for example, the ball arrives unexpectedly at a player in an offside position who then plays the ball instinctively. I do award the penalty but counter the returned disbelief with a remark such as 'I know, it's an instinctive reaction'.

Mat 04
17-01-06, 17:01
OB, what is the difference between your case and the one we are talking about??? im confused

Simon Griffiths
17-01-06, 17:01
Deeps, if it looks instinctive I tend to give a scrum for 'accidental offside', but if it looks at all like they've made a concious decision to play it (or by playing it they've prevented an onside, opposition player from doing so) then I award a PK.

Thank you OB - I could remember being told that you can't be offside from a charge down (and can remember that law) but was having a bit of trouble finding it - try awarded (which was my initial reaction, but with no 'evidence' I didn't post).

PeterTC
17-01-06, 18:01
Why is it try awarded? (Or am I looking at a scenario different to the original one now)

ex-lucy
17-01-06, 18:01
dunno, other than what the referee said at the time ... "there is no offside in the in-goal area" .... to much protestations from defending team.
It was a junior match, i believe, Under14s or so.... and it may have been a club referee as opposed to a society ref.

PeterTC
17-01-06, 18:01
I meant to address that to Simon, asking for a clarification of his last comment.

I thought we had all agree it was offside.

Jacko
17-01-06, 19:01
If I understand what's been written we have two different scenarios. In the first, the player who next played the ball after the charge down was on the same team as the charger-down. Was he offside? I believe yes he was and the try should not have been awarded.
The second scenario raised was when the player playing the ball after the charge down was on the same team as the kicker, but was in front of the kicker and so would have been liable to penalty without the charge down. However, the charge down means he is now onside. This situation is not affected by in-goal.
Hope I've understood everything, and this clears up some confusion.

didds
17-01-06, 20:01
if OP's ref was correct then teams would merely have to stand a player in the in-goal and kick the ball to him to catch and score with.

Clearly a load of old bill hooks.

didds

Simon Griffiths
17-01-06, 22:01
Please ignore my comments (about charge down), having re-read the Law, I have realised that it actually says a team mate of the kicker, not of the player making the charge down.

Davet
18-01-06, 13:01
Offside in open play applies in-goal as much as on the field of play. So the call by the ref was totally wrong.

I have heard may a call from the touchlines to the effect "You can't be offside from a charge down - both sides onside". As is mentioned above that also is untrue. The charger's team-mate infront of the charger is offside. All the charge down has done is put all of the kickers team on-side - including the bloke 1 metre beyond the charger.

Finally, on what constitutes a charge down - I use a simple rule of thumb - if the ball is on the up then it can be charged down. If its on its way down then you dropped it.

OB..
18-01-06, 17:01
I think the crucial feature about a charge down is that the player cannot be expected to react quickly enough to catch or control the ball, so it is unfair to charge him with a knock-on. That means that most of the time that rule of thumb will work.

However consider a fly-hack off the ground that is still rising when it gets to a player 10 metres away. I have seen this often enough. The player has time to try to catch it. If he fails, and it goes forward, I do not consider it to be a charge down, but a knock-on.

Davet
19-01-06, 13:01
I think I would probably react to that in empathy with the player's actions. If he tries to catch it anf fails then knock on - if he simply gets his body or arms in the way and blocks the ball's flight then charge down.

Basically using the "duck" principle.