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Phil E
05-05-09, 12:05
When the ball goes into touch less than 5m from the goal line, the lineout is on the 5m line.

Law 19
(l) The line of touch must not be within 5 metres of the goal line.

I have always made the 5m line the line of touch and got the players half a metre either side of it, thus placing the defense inside the 5m-goal line gap.

At a game a couple of weeks ago where I was AR for a senior ref, when I marked this and tried to get the defensive players back half a meter from the 5m line the ref asked me to move and placed the defensive players "on" the 5m line and moved the line of touch accordingly. He said to me that the players had to be 5m from the goal line. I did think he said something like "they now have to be.............." Meant to ask him about it after the match, but forgot about it entirely until now.

Was he correct?
Was I correct?
Have I missed a ruling?

What about a scrum on the 5m, is the 5m line the middle line of the scrum (placing the defensive players inside the 5m), which is the way I have always done it.

Simon Thomas
05-05-09, 12:05
Phil E - I am not aware of a ruling etc about this and sounds like a personal preference of that referee. How senior a ref - grade level ?

I have always used the 5m as the LoT and have assessed level 5 group Referees on that basis too.

Same for 5m scrums.

Phil E
05-05-09, 12:05
Phil E - I am not aware of a ruling etc about this and sounds like a personal preference of that referee. How senior a ref - grade level ?

I have always used the 5m as the LoT and have assessed level 5 group Referees on that basis too.

Same for 5m scrums.

Level 7.

Simon Thomas
05-05-09, 12:05
His personal preference then as a Society Ref !

If I assessed him I would query it, and be interested in his explanation (which may well be totally justified).

Not a major issue in any case.

Dickie E
05-05-09, 13:05
Meant to ask him about it after the match, but forgot about it entirely until now.


Was I correct?


You were incorrect in not asking him :rolleyes:

Dixie
05-05-09, 15:05
I take the 5m as the line of touch. Asfor 5m scrums, I always thought the law was specific; the centre line of the scrum is above the 5m line. Where's OB's computer when you need it? From the definitions section of Law 20:
The middle line of a scrum must not be within 5 metres of the goal
line. A scrum cannot take place within 5 metres of a touchline. Echoed by 20.1(b): :
The middle line of a scrum must not be within 5 metres of the goal line when it is formed. Supported by 20.1(c):
(c) If there is an infringement or stoppage in in-goal, the place for the
scrum is 5 metres from the goal line. it seems natural that "the place for the scrum" is where the referee makes his mark; that would put the centre line of the scrum above the 5m line. I suppose it could be read differently, but that would surely be both an odd and a controversial interpretation?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
05-05-09, 15:05
20.1 (b)

If you have a scrum within 5m of touch do you make a mark on the 5m line or say 7m from touch so the whole scrum is 5m from touch. Law 20.1 (b)says the place for the scrum is 5m from the touchline - is the place for the scrum the mark? Is there a disease called Chopperitis?

706

Phil E
05-05-09, 15:05
I take the 5m as the line of touch. As for 5m scrums, I always thought the law was specific; the centre line of the scrum is above the 5m line.

But thats not what it says. It says the middle line must not be within 5m from the goal line.

What I was getting at there is, if the other ref puts the whole lineout 5m from the goal line, then would he put the whole scrum 5m from the goal line.

Just wondered what everyone else does? Seems to have been answered.

Lee, do you want raspberry sauce with that? :bday:

Dixie
05-05-09, 15:05
20.1 (b)

If you have a scrum within 5m of touch do you make a mark on the 5m line or say 7m from touch so the whole scrum is 5m from touch. Law 20.1 (b)says the place for the scrum is 5m from the touchline - is the place for the scrum the mark? Is there a disease called Chopperitis? Good point, Lee, and one that has been debated quite fully. Interestingly, both options are commonly practiced by refs who have studied the law and come to different conclusions.

My own is that the combination of 20.1(b) and the definitions section for Law 20 ("A scrum cannot take place within 5 metres of a touchline.") means that no scrummager can be within 5m of the touchline, so the hookers are 6/7m from the touchline. I prefer that to having 8 of the 18 scrummagerss applying their art within 5m of the touchline. If you view the definitions bit as secondary and subsidiary to (and in conflict with) 20.1(b), then you may well make your mark on the 5m line.

Looking in more detail at the deficiency of this piece of legislation, we see that a scrum can only take place in the field of play, and we draw from this the conclusion that the scrum ends when all of it has crossed the goal line. Can we make the same dtermination if all of it moves within 5m of the touchline? If not, why not?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
05-05-09, 15:05
Lee, do you want raspberry sauce with that? :bday:

That reminds me of an old Stanley Baxter sketch where our hero goes for an ice cream and in a croaky voice asks for an ice cream.

"You wanna flake?" says token Italian vendor (Stan again)
"Yes please!" (croaky)
"You wanna some raspberry sauce?"
"Yes please!" (croaky)
"Crusheda nuts?"
"No laryngitis"

Ta dahhhhhhh!:bday:

Lee Lifeson-Peart
05-05-09, 16:05
Good point, Lee, and one that has been debated quite fully. Interestingly, both options are commonly practiced by refs who have studied the law and come to different conclusions.

My own is that the combination of 20.1(b) and the definitions section for Law 20 ("A scrum cannot take place within 5 metres of a touchline.") means that no scrummager can be within 5m of the touchline, so the hookers are 6/7m from the touchline. I prefer that to having 8 of the 18 scrummagerss applying their art within 5m of the touchline. If you view the definitions bit as secondary and subsidiary to (and in conflict with) 20.1(b), then you may well make your mark on the 5m line.

Looking in more detail at the deficiency of this piece of legislation, we see that a scrum can only take place in the field of play, and we draw from this the conclusion that the scrum ends when all of it has crossed the goal line. Can we make the same dtermination if all of it moves within 5m of the touchline? If not, why not?

I personally put the all the scrum beyond the five from touch ie mark 7m in(less far to run to the next breakdown :swet: ) but that is a personal interpretation of the law (I saw it on telly really and remember some discussion a while back.)

Simon Thomas
05-05-09, 16:05
For scrums 5m in from touch, the ,mark is made 7-8m in so that the entire FR is pitch side of the 5m line.

Smart, neat and tidy and this is what we look for at level 5 / 6 assessments.

ExHookah
05-05-09, 21:05
For scrums 5m in from touch, the ,mark is made 7-8m in so that the entire FR is pitch side of the 5m line.

Smart, neat and tidy and this is what we look for at level 5 / 6 assessments.


That's my approach.

Bunniksider
05-05-09, 23:05
I brought this positional question up on my recent ELRA and the consensus was as stated above that the whole of the scrum should be 5m from the touch line (ie the mark being 7.5m or so).

However it was agreed that for a 15m scrum the mark and centre of the scrum would be the 15m line.

I find it reassuring somehow that much more experienced referees than I are contemplating/discussing an issue that I have recently pondered over.

ExHookah
05-05-09, 23:05
I find it reassuring somehow that much more experienced referees than I are contemplating/discussing an issue that I have recently pondered over.

Trust me, I've been at some fairly senior events where matters simpler than this have been debated back and forth.

One of the beauties of refereeing this sport of ours, is that the debate and analysis never stops.

chopper15
06-05-09, 11:05
Ref. Dixie; Looking in more detail at the deficiency of this piece of legislation, we see that a scrum can only take place in the field of play, and we draw from this the conclusion that the scrum ends when all of it has crossed the goal line. Can we make the same termination if all of it moves within 5m of the touchline? If not, why not?

I wish I had thought of that one, Dixie. Definitely symptomatic of ‘Chopperitis’. :clap:

Applying the same logic, perhaps the LoT reference to a QT taken between the GL and the flagged 5m line should outlaw the throw? :hap:

Phil E
06-05-09, 12:05
Ref. Dixie; Looking in more detail at the deficiency of this piece of legislation, we see that a scrum can only take place in the field of play, and we draw from this the conclusion that the scrum ends when all of it has crossed the goal line. Can we make the same termination if all of it moves within 5m of the touchline? If not, why not?

Because the "in goal" area is NOT part of the field of play. The area from the touchline to the 5m line IS part of the field of play.

The Field of play is the area (as shown on the plan) between the goal
lines and the touchlines. These lines are not part of the field of play.

David J.
06-05-09, 15:05
Chopper,
Didn't someone else recently chastise you for not reading the law before asking a question about it? Please see 20.1 and 20.10.

chopper15
07-05-09, 19:05
Chopper,
Didn't someone else recently chastise you for not reading the law before asking a question about it? Please see 20.1 and 20.10.

I think your upbraiding of me, Dave, is not only misplaced but also suggests you and Phil have missed Dixie’s point. (You’re also contributing to my growing paranoia. :sad: )

I interpreted his comparison of goal area termination with tramlines termination - should the scrum move there, because the laws refer to ‘The place for the scrum is 5 metres from that touchline.’ and ‘ The middle line of the scrum must not be within 5 metres of the goal line.’

My query, applying the same logic, was that a QT taken between the GL and the flagged 5m line should be outlawed because, 'the line of touch must not be within 5 metres of the goal line.'

Yes, gentlemen, I am aware of the pertinent laws. But how do you interpret them?

SimonSmith
07-05-09, 20:05
I would argue that the LoT is referenced under the old QT law.

The ELV, allowing the play to be made anywhere between the LoT and goal line has done away with your concern.

David J.
07-05-09, 21:05
Did you read the laws in question or simply take offense at my requesting that you do so?

I realize now that the bit about the scrum was you quoting Dixie verbatim.



I interpreted his comparison of goal area termination with tramlines termination - should the scrum move there, because the laws refer to ‘The place for the scrum is 5 metres from that touchline.’ and ‘ The middle line of the scrum must not be within 5 metres of the goal line.’


You comparison is inconsistent then. The touch lines are the equivalent of the goal line if you're making an analogy based on your two quotes.

Regardless, what Dixie says is inaccurate.

A scrum does not end when all of it has crossed the goal line. A scrum ends when the ball crosses the goal line and that is set by law. Likewise a scrum would end when the ball crosses the touchline. After the scrum is formed the 5m line (both from touch and from goal) become irrelevant.

We all agree the laws can be annoyingly ambiguous. It's clear to me that the restrictions in the Definitions are referring to the forming of the scrum, and those restrictions are repeated immediately after the Defs in 20.1 under the heading Forming a Scrum.

By emphasizing that line in Definitions, suddenly referees around the world will smack their heads and say, "Mein gott, we've been doing this wrong all along, as soon as the 6 steps across the 5m, we should whistle to stop play!"? I doubt it.

I do not understand your point about the quick throw.
-The law you quote about the line of touch refers to a lineout, not to a quick throw. They are two entirely separate sections of Law 19.
-The quick throw law says, "For a quick throw in, the player may be anywhere outside the field of play between the place where the ball went into touch and the player’s goal line." No mention of the LoT anyway.

It's not paranoia, we are all out to get you.:eek:

chopper15
08-05-09, 16:05
I realize now that the bit about the scrum was you quoting Dixie verbatim.

Regardless, what Dixie says is inaccurate.

I do not understand your point about the quick throw.
-The law you quote about the line of touch refers to a lineout, not to a quick throw. They are two entirely separate sections of Law 19.
-The quick throw law says, "For a quick throw in, the player may be anywhere outside the field of play between the place where the ball went into touch and the player’s goal line." No mention of the LoT anyway.

It's not paranoia, we are all out to get you.:eek:



I did mention the scrum query was Dixie's, David. And, of course, I had to be aware of the relevent laws to realize you had misread it. Never mind.:hap:

And with reference to my QT query;

ELV.Law 19.2 QUICK THROW IN (f) At a quick throw in a player may throw the ball in straight along the line of touch or towards that player’s goal line.

You're now on my 'Out to get Chopper list'. :wait:

Phil E
08-05-09, 16:05
You're now on my 'Out to get Chopper list'. :wait:

Can I be on that list please?
Have you got a little black book with all our names in?
Your name vill also go on ze list!

Chopper, you have forgotten (or ignored) that with the ELV's the old laws still apply.

Namely 19.2 (b)

(b) For a quick throw in, the player may be anywhere outside the field
of play between the place where the ball went into touch and the
player’s goal line.

David J.
08-05-09, 16:05
Chopper,
You do not quote correctly. You do it in your own unclear manner, rather than use the native forum controls which uses drop-shadow boxes to remove ambiguity.

And, as has been said before on threads in which you've been a participant, the pre-ELV Line of Touch was not limited to a lineout. The line of touch also referred to the line at a Quick Throw along which the ball must be thrown straight. We've discussed this before.

I've reached my limit with your selectiveness in choosing which laws to quote and which threads to remember, and your general trollness, intended or not.

*plonk* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_(usenet))

Simonsky
10-05-09, 04:05
As a newbie this thread has left me sweating as it seem's there is yet another area where I'm sliding on ice:eek: . Given I'm new to this is it really worth my while worring about whether half the scrum is over the 5Meter mark and half the LO over the line? At my stage it is nice to have a bit of whitewash you can put your foot on for the mark with a degree of certitude:mad:

Dickie E
10-05-09, 07:05
At my stage it is nice to have a bit of whitewash you can put your foot on for the mark with a degree of certitude:mad:

I agree. Dancing on pinhead otherwise.

PaulDG
10-05-09, 08:05
As a newbie this thread has left me sweating as it seem's there is yet another area where I'm sliding on ice:eek: . Given I'm new to this is it really worth my while worring about whether half the scrum is over the 5Meter mark and half the LO over the line? At my stage it is nice to have a bit of whitewash you can put your foot on for the mark with a degree of certitude:mad:

Don't worry about it.

This is a technical/intellectual conversation about wording detail.

On the day, the mark for the scrum is where you say it is. End of story.

Davet
10-05-09, 11:05
I have always made the mark on the 5m line (which ever was appropriate - and on occasion both).

My reason was that the Laws the "place for the scrum", and also says that the mark is the place. If the place cannot be within 5m then it seems reasonable to make as near as possible - ie ON the 5.

The mark is the point over which the hookers heads meet.

In 30 years playing (before taking up reffing over 10 years ago) I have never seen the mark made other than as per above. Since reffing I have been aware of the discussion, but very rarely witnessed the variation from on the 5.

Indeed, when I did the old exam that enabled one to move from C grade to B grade one of the law questions was about a knock-on 1m from goal and 1m from touch - where would the place for the scrum be - answer 5 & 5.

So my instinct is to say mark on the line.

Simonsky
10-05-09, 18:05
So my instinct is to say mark on the line.


Phew!!! (icon: mopping sweat from brow). I felt, for a moment, that one of the few things I could rely on was to be taken away:eek:

pesce
14-05-09, 11:05
I agree with davet