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JDET
16-06-09, 11:06
I am looking for clarification on a point in the game that always seems to cause some debate in the club house. The point in question is when a player is tackled and the tackler is quick to his feet, does he have to move round 'through the gate' to an on side postition before he can make a attempt for the ball or is there no such off side line because the ball is considered in open play.

Simonsky
16-06-09, 11:06
As a new ref, this is an area that has got me confused and pinging players (I've only done two games!). Having brought this question up myself on this site, the answer has been: tackler who gets back on feet does not have to go via gate and can play the ball from any angle -all arriving players must go via gate.

OB..
16-06-09, 12:06
There is no offside at the tackle. The significance of this is that players nowhere near the tackle are not affected by the tackle law, whereas at a ruck, for example, the far winger can be offside.

The law defines three types of player: the tackler(s), the tackled player, and other players. It is only the last group who have to enter the tackle zone through the gate. A tackler is defined as having gone to ground in the tackle.
Law 15.4 (c)

The tackler must get up before playing the ball and then may play the ball from any
direction.

Dickie E
16-06-09, 13:06
The thing to be careful about is to distinguish between a "tackler" who goes to ground himself (he doesn't have to go through gate) and a "tackler*" who doesn't go to ground (he has to enter through the gate).

* technically this player isn't a "tackler", eventhough he has caused the ball carrier to be tackled.

Simonsky
16-06-09, 13:06
The thing to be careful about is to distinguish between a "tackler" who goes to ground himself (he doesn't have to go through gate) and a "tackler*" who doesn't go to ground (he has to enter through the gate).

* technically this player isn't a "tackler", eventhough he has caused the ball carrier to be tackled.

Good point Dickie
- this can be tricky to supervise if there are two would be tacklers and only one goes to ground so the one grounded can get up and play but the one still on feet has to be on his goal line side of ball like the other approching players.

Simon Thomas
16-06-09, 14:06
As my learned colleague OB and Simonsky say the tackler is not offside once he regains his feet and does not have to come back into the tackle through the gate.

Where we get more confusion is that players (tackler) may be not be releasing the ball as they stand up (just watch McCaw), or the referee's perception sees things (he sees tackler release ball for nano second) that complicates the interpretations.

Is the tackler getting all the way up, or is he resting on tackled players body, is the tackled player releasing the ball to the player on his feet, or hanging on longer than he should to twist and place it behind him, or help a late arriving coleague seal it in ?

At the Elite and National League levels it all happens so fast, the referee has only an (delete : instance) instant to make his decision.

Dixie
16-06-09, 14:06
the referee has only an instance to make his decision. Which is a fraction longer than an instant, though in practical terms the difference is so small as to be irrelevant

Phil E
16-06-09, 15:06
Which is a fraction longer than an instant, though in practical terms the difference is so small as to be irrelevant

10 bob says he blames his blackberry?

Dixie
16-06-09, 15:06
10 bob says he blames his blackberry?:biggrin: :clap: Never let it be said that he's become predictable

Simon Thomas
16-06-09, 15:06
nothing to do with my blackberry, just an appalling waste of an expensive education in this instance (as an individual illustrative of word confusion, but which has no temporal constraints) and corrected in an instant (which is a temporal definition) using edit !

Toby Warren
16-06-09, 16:06
How long before a tackler becomes a non tackler?

So for example tackler makes tackle rolls away hobbles a little bit then remembers he can play the ball say 2-3 seconds later.

Is he still a tackler?
What happens if a ruck forms in that 2-3 seconds (can he enter on the wrong side?)

Dixie
16-06-09, 16:06
Is he still a tackler?
What happens if a ruck forms in that 2-3 seconds (can he enter on the wrong side?) He is still the tackler. However, the reason he doesn't need to enter the tackle area through the gate is because he's there already. He can't leave the tackle area t0o hobbler, then return to it other than through the gate, IMO. I accept that's an indirect extrapolation from the laws, rather than a direct requirement.

The tackler only has superior rights at a tackle. Once that phase is over and a ruck forms, the tackler is treated same as everyone else - join level with the rearmost foot.

Toby Warren
16-06-09, 16:06
He is still the tackler. However, the reason he doesn't need to enter the tackle area through the gate is because he's there already. He can't leave the tackle area t0o hobbler, then return to it other than through the gate, IMO. I accept that's an indirect extrapolation from the laws, rather than a direct requirement.

The tackler only has superior rights at a tackle. Once that phase is over and a ruck forms, the tackler is treated same as everyone else - join level with the rearmost foot.

But he must roll away!

Phil E
16-06-09, 16:06
But he must roll away!

OR get up.

Toby Warren
16-06-09, 16:06
OR get up.


So he rolls and gets up - is he still a tackler?

Phil E
16-06-09, 17:06
So he rolls and gets up - is he still a tackler?

As long as he is still in the vicinity of the tackle area.

Toby Warren
16-06-09, 17:06
As long as he is still in the vicinity of the tackle area.

So I re ask the question when does he stop being the tackler 2 seconds? formation of the ruck end of the ruck? end of the phase?

OB..
16-06-09, 17:06
So I re ask the question when does he stop being the tackler 2 seconds? formation of the ruck end of the ruck? end of the phase?
The question has been answered.
(1) when/if he leaves the tackle zone.
(2) when the tackle is over eg ruck forms; ball leaves the tackle zone.

Simonsky
16-06-09, 17:06
[QUOTE=Simon Thomas;81506]

Where we get more confusion is that players (tackler) may be not be releasing the ball as they stand up (just watch McCaw), or the referee's perception sees things (he sees tackler release ball for nano second) that complicates the interpretations.

ST- probably me being daft here:sleep: but I don't really get what you mean here: you refer to the 'tackler' not releasing the ball; do you mean the tackler releases tacklee then gets up and grabs ball -but surely he doesn;t have to release at this point? Elaboration for the dull-witted please!

OB..
16-06-09, 17:06
It is common in a bear hug tackle for the tackler to roll over while holding the tackled player down and keeping his hands on the ball. It is illegal, but often done so quickly it is hard to differentiate from the legal procedure. I think both McCaw and O'Driscoll have excellent technique on the edge of legality, but legal much more often than not.

PaulDG
16-06-09, 19:06
What happens if a ruck forms in that 2-3 seconds (can he enter on the wrong side?)

Of course, if he has complied with the tackle Laws, is on his feet and has his hands on the ball when the ruck forms, he can still hold onto the ball. (ruling 4).

Ian_Cook
17-06-09, 09:06
Where we get more confusion is that players (tackler) may be not be releasing the ball as they stand up (just watch McCaw), or the referee's perception sees things (he sees tackler release ball for nano second) that complicates the interpretations.

As usual, I see McCaw being singled out for "not releasing the tackled player" prior to getting up.
McCaw is no more or less guilty in this regard than any other fetcher. I have watched McCaw practicing is his technique at Canterbury, Crusader, and All balcks training sessions, and I have seen exactly how he executes in actual matches up close and personal.

McCaw's technique is to release the player, place his hands on the ground and push himself up while he is still sliding, using his momentum, to bring him back to his feet, and the moment he is unsupported by his hands, he grabs the ball. It is all done in one continuous motion in less than a second. I have seen him practice this sequence over and over, sliding on the the ground, pushing up while pivoting on his feet using his momentum to bring him upright. He practices until it becomes automatic

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o35/smartcooky99/th_21cc9cb2.jpg (http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o35/smartcooky99/?action=view&current=21cc9cb2.pbr)

The fact is that McCaw does this so quickly that most referees, even at the elite level, aren't quick enough or good enough to keep up.


-----


Another point is to keep in mind is that a tackle is not limited to one player. If two players bring the ball carrier to ground, then they are BOTH tacklers and neither of them have to go through the gate.

TheBFG
17-06-09, 09:06
As usual, I see McCaw being singled out for "not releasing the tackled player" prior to getting up.
McCaw is no more or less guilty in this regard than any other fetcher. I have watched McCaw practicing is his technique at Canterbury, Crusader, and All balcks training sessions, and I have seen exactly how he executes in actual matches up close and personal.

McCaw's technique is to release the player, place his hands on the ground and push himself up while he is still sliding, using his momentum, to bring him back to his feet, and the moment he is unsupported by his hands, he grabs the ball. It is all done in one continuous motion in less than a second. I have seen him practice this sequence over and over, sliding on the the ground, pushing up while pivoting on his feet using his momentum to bring him upright. He practices until it becomes automatic

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o35/smartcooky99/th_21cc9cb2.jpg (http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o35/smartcooky99/?action=view&current=21cc9cb2.pbr)

The fact is that McCaw does this so quickly that most referees, even at the elite level, aren't quick enough or good enough to keep up.


-----


Another point is to keep in mind is that a tackle is not limited to one player. If two players bring the ball carrier to ground, then they are BOTH tacklers and neither of them have to go through the gate.

don't have an issue with the above tackle, although the clip is a little short, as the tackle is around the legs, where the problem ppl have is where (as OB says) there is the bear hug type tackle, i.e. they are bound on to the ball as part of the tackle and then don't let go before getting to their feet. Is this an issue??? at my level not going to happen, but interesting to hear what others think?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
17-06-09, 10:06
-----


Another point is to keep in mind is that a tackle is not limited to one player. If two players bring the ball carrier to ground, then they are BOTH tacklers and neither of them have to go through the gate.

RMC is very good at that superfluous tackler bit. He goes to ground whilst holding tackled player but his net contribution to the tackle is <50% (assuming 2 men) but it allows him to do what he does - very well I hasten to add!

Phil E
17-06-09, 10:06
Cant really tell anything usefull from that clip as its too short and you dont see the end result.

At the end of the clip 10 is still lying all over the ball carrier though!

Ian_Cook
17-06-09, 10:06
Absolutley right. The LotG makes no distinction concerning the percentage of involvement in the tackle. If you held bring the player to ground AND went to ground yourself, you are a tackler.

In this case, McCaw was the initial tackler, fractionally before Carter joined and both brought Narraway to ground.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o35/smartcooky99/th_98d93094.jpg (http://s116.photobucket.com/albums/o35/smartcooky99/?action=view&current=98d93094.pbr)

Then Nigel Owen penalised McCaw because he said that he was "clearly not the tackler" :rolleyes:

Just goes to prove my point. Even elite referees of Owen's standard aren't quick enough to see whats happening in real time and without a replay.

Simon Thomas
17-06-09, 11:06
As usual, I see McCaw being singled out for "not releasing the tackled player" prior to getting up.
McCaw is no more or less guilty in this regard than any other fetcher. I have watched McCaw practicing is his technique at Canterbury, Crusader, and All balcks training sessions, and I have seen exactly how he executes in actual matches up close and personal.

Ian - I mentioned McCaw as he is probably the best at both the legal and illegal versions of the technique - and of course only very rarely uses the illegal non-release version.

Others I could have mentioned are Neil Back, Peter Wingterbottom, Phil Waugh, George Smith, and in the last two weeks Mpho Mbiyozo (Southern Kings) and Heinrich Brussow (Free State).

It is nothing new as a technique, just more obvious with the increased amount of TV coverage and pundits. I had it as as a training drill 30 years ago - tackle, release player & ball, jump up onto feet, hands on ball. If you were lazy or wanted to secure possession, you didn't do the "release player & ball" bit and usually got away with it.

PS Agreed at the time and ever since that Owens got that one wrong !

Phil E
17-06-09, 11:06
Which ones McCaw 7 or 10?
7 jumps to his feet, ok.
Ref says roll away 10, which 10 doesn't do.
So its defiantly a penalty to white, whatever happens?

Ian_Cook
17-06-09, 13:06
Which ones McCaw 7 or 10?
7 jumps to his feet, ok.
Ref says roll away 10, which 10 doesn't do.
So its defiantly a penalty to white, whatever happens?

I disagree. No 10 (Carter) rolls away alright. Owens PK'd No. 7 (McCaw) because he didn't go through the gate. Here is the full clip

http://s116.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid116.photobucket.com/albums/o35/smartcooky99/McCaw.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1

I use this video often as an example of the correct way to tackle release stand up and play the ball. Its just a shame that Owens spoiled it by getting the call wrong.

Its also a good example of two tacklers bringing the ball carrier to ground. So often I get people trying to tell me that the first tackler is the only one allowed to play the ball from any direction and that the second and subsequent tacklers must go through the gate. I have no idea what people base this on.

Simon Thomas
17-06-09, 14:06
I have no idea what people base this on.

usual source for such urban myths - their imagination, or lack of it.

Deeps
17-06-09, 16:06
I have the upmost respect for Richie McCaw as a player and for Nigel Owens as a referee and I would agree that Nigel got it wrong there but what a difficult situation to referee.

With the benefit of several reruns, I can see nothing wrong with the behaviour of the two NZ tacklers and would suggest that the first offence was committed by White #7, in at the side and straight off his feet. PK to NZ.

ddjamo
17-06-09, 23:06
all I have to say is they are damn good at that move. if a second tackler were to say, grab onto a jersey or shorts - flop - then pop up - would you ping them for those charades?

Ian_Cook
18-06-09, 00:06
all I have to say is they are damn good at that move. if a second tackler were to say, grab onto a jersey or shorts - flop - then pop up - would you ping them for those charades?


Simply grabbing a jersey does not count. There is a difference between a player going to ground WITH the ball carrier and a player bringing the ball carrier to ground. The former is not a tackler, the latter is!

You have to judge whether or not the tackler was truly tackling the ball carrier:

Could Black 7's tackle have brought White 8 to ground without any other player being involved - Yes, so he is a tackler

Could Black 10's tackle have brought White 8 to ground without any other player being involved - Yes, so he is also a tackler

ddjamo
18-06-09, 00:06
I understand that...but what if - ala - hockey - they fake it and just grab enough to go/take them to the ground and pop up...

what you are saying - it must be enough that if the other tackler was not there he could have done it on his own?

OB..
18-06-09, 00:06
ddjamo - you are asking what shade of grey constitutes black or white. Answer: it is a judgement call.