PDA

View Full Version : where do YOU mark the middle of the line for the front guys?



TheBFG
02-07-09, 14:07
BAD TITLE, BUT YOU'LL KNOW WHAT I MEAN!

while there's a fred going for LO, one thing i've noticed and i know it's only a matter of 0.5m, but where do you make the mark the 5m line for the front guys?

I have alway gone for the centre of the line and asked the front guys to take a good .5m off it (as part of pre match brief, something like.....i'll mark the middle of the line for you and i want you to take a good half meter off it and i'll make sure they do the same) as i've never been told anything different?

However i've seen other refs, mark the defensive line?

Reason? or just preference?

nealed
02-07-09, 14:07
having seen others do it,
i now usually mark where i want the defensive front man to stand, and i explain that it is the responsibility of the attacking/throwing in side/front player to line up a suitable distance away (1 metre or usually more)
i have found that it works well.
The first lineout is when i tell them all what i want
I make a central mark and then a mark for the non throwing front man
after that just make a mark for the non throwing side

upnunder
02-07-09, 14:07
I generally mark the centre of the line and tell the front guys to set the line half a metre off it.

I have tried marking the defensive line position, but they ended up just standing half a metre each side of it at every line out after the first one so I went back to marking the centre.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
02-07-09, 15:07
I mark the middle - set the front blokes at the first line out and say that's where I want it every line out. If you say 0.5m each side and leave them to i you get mensurally challenged props giving you a line circa 1971 with Delme Thomas jumping at the front. It's usually a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig metre gap for me. If they reach into it (the gap) it's straight (the throw) , if arms go straight up/outward it's cockeyed (the throw) - works for me in the weeds! :hap:

Phil E
02-07-09, 15:07
All last season I marked both teams which means I set the gap not them.

However I worked with a couple of good refs who set the defensive mark, putting the onus on the attackers to set the gap. This seemed to work very well and I want to try it next season.

DrSTU
02-07-09, 15:07
All last season I marked both teams which means I set the gap not them.

However I worked with a couple of good refs who set the defensive mark, putting the onus on the attackers to set the gap. This seemed to work very well and I want to try it next season.

I do exactly this. (X) There's your mark, (Y) there's yours.

Lets me set the gap but off course I'm only really interested in the defensive side closing the gap before the ball's in.

In my mind (although technically an offense) if the attacking team close their own gap then that's their fault; I've created the space for them to use and they took it away themselves.

Staybound
02-07-09, 16:07
I mark the middle line. If I'm having any bother with the gap I use my hands to show where I expect them to line up. If I'm still getting aggro I tend to go for the "country metre" just to make sure.

OB..
02-07-09, 16:07
Nearly all the referees I see mark the middle. The only exceptions are those who mark for both teams. I have not seen anybody mark the defensive line only.

I recommend marking the middle simply because that is what teams expect.

Phil E
02-07-09, 16:07
I recommend marking the middle simply because that is what teams expect.

I had several teams last season ask what I would be marking, defensive, middle or both. I don't usually tell them as part of my brief (theres a clue in the name) I tell them at the first lineout.

Staybound
02-07-09, 17:07
I had several teams last season ask what I would be marking, defensive, middle or both. I don't usually tell them as part of my brief (theres a clue in the name) I tell them at the first lineout.

Blimey, sounds like middle and leg please to me! Left handed hooker coming around my head......One to face

Tryer
02-07-09, 18:07
I say that either the TJ or I will mark the point of touch. When addressing the forwards (it is usually the props who stand at the front at my level) I give them the responsibility of creating the gap and ensuring their team maintain it. Have to remind them during the game but has worked so far...... any FK during the game I remind them and the capt and they accept it.....

FlipFlop
03-07-09, 08:07
I mark the defensive (non-throwing in side) limit.

They are the ones who want a small gap, so I give them a mark they can't encroach over. Works very well. And when the throwing in side complain about the size of the gap, there is only 1 side you need to move - them.

I mention it at the very end of my brief, they get teh message (in my bad french/english/german mix) and if I have nay issues with it, they are all solved by the start of the first lineout.

I've had one assessor mark me down (in Swiss) for setting a small gap on one teams throw, even though I explained that was their choice, and their disadvantage, he wanted the large 1m gap, both sides set etc - when asked why, the answer was along the lines of "because that's the way it should be done". (Both teams were happy with the size of the gap...)

I ignored his advice on this....

OB..
03-07-09, 09:07
FlipFlop - if I understand you correctly, you position the non-throwing team half a metre from the line of touch, and are happy to let the throwing side come right up to the line of touch if they want. That is, of course, contrary to Law 19.8 (n) as your assessor said. Since the thrower has to stand on the line of touch, it surely means the throwing side have a greater advantage in getting to the ball?

Deeps
03-07-09, 09:07
I mark the centreline having briefed that there should be gap between the shoulders equal to the size of the beer fridge. It's easy then to remind players to 'Leave room for the fridge please gents'.

Jenko
03-07-09, 10:07
I mark the centreline having briefed that there should be gap between the shoulders equal to the size of the beer fridge. It's easy then to remind players to 'Leave room for the fridge please gents'.

Have you see the size of some fridges?! The 2 lines could be in different counties:D

Deeps
03-07-09, 10:07
Have you see the size of some fridges?! The 2 lines could be in different counties:D

Well, I think the term 'standard kitchen unit' would be lost on most players, except ladies of course but then of course they would be inclined to stand much closer to the line having smaller feet!

Dickie E
03-07-09, 10:07
I always mark the LoT unless I stand at the back of the lineout. In this case I make no mark but ensure that the lines form either side of LoT (as shown by TJ's position)

FlipFlop
03-07-09, 12:07
FlipFlop - if I understand you correctly, you position the non-throwing team half a metre from the line of touch, and are happy to let the throwing side come right up to the line of touch if they want. That is, of course, contrary to Law 19.8 (n) as your assessor said. Since the thrower has to stand on the line of touch, it surely means the throwing side have a greater advantage in getting to the ball?

But if they do stand there, there is more chance of the throw being "not straight" as adjudged by how the ball is caught - over head = not straight.

Never had a team up to the line of touch. They WANT the gap. As a former LO jumper - I know I wanted the gap on my ball, and would seek to reduce it on their ball. Catching in a congested LO is harder.

And if the lifters then moved beyond the LoT, that is also likely to be penalised.

But as I said, I've never had that problem.

My normal problem is the throwing in side setting a 2m gap, and then wondering (despite a warning) why they get penalised for not-straight when they catch it "normally", and still 1m from the LoT. But this probably happens in less that 1 in 5 games, and only once in each of those.

So yes - I know it is contrary to law to be there for either side. But I find that marking teh defensive line, means that they encroach less, and we get better LOs. Perhaps I'm just too lazy to also mark the attacking LO.

ddjamo
03-07-09, 12:07
I mark the LOT too. question is - when do you FK the dumb props that will not learn and you have to reset them every single dang line out? happens here all the time. inevitably one side has a prop that walks up the the LOT and turns his back to the touch line to lift and is not paying attention to the mark I just made...or hell...I could be standing next to him and he plants his boot 6 inches from mine, again and again and again....how many?

dave_clark
03-07-09, 12:07
ask, tell, penalise. i had this in my second society match, the front man was refusing to give half a metre from the mark. i FK'd on the third. funnily enough, he started behaving after that.

Simon Thomas
03-07-09, 12:07
Standard practice in England is to mark the line-of-touch as the minimum requirement.

Additional marking of defensive line, or both defensive & attacking line, getting both front men to buy in to them setting the gap for you all match, comments about barn doors, fridges, etc are all good if they add to the management control, early setting out of referee standards and are effective. That is what I assess on at level 6. Any difference to the minimum (e.g. defensive line only marked, I would be discussing it with the referee and identifying evidence of if & when his management technique caused problems in keeping the gap, not straights missed, and across & along the line offences.

At Group and Panel (levels 5 and above) most referees mark the l-o-t and the defensive line also to aid their metre gap management.

As for Dickie's post, if you are going to the back of the line (quite correct of course to do so) you would be expected in England to mark the 5m L-O-T first and manange the two front players positions as usual.

OB..
03-07-09, 12:07
FlipFlop - you choose to ignore the law and an assessor. What message is that sending to the players? "Last week's ref let us do it." Is it not better if referees are consistent in such matters?

We have had this sort of argument on positioning at the kick-off. People argue cogently for being well in front, but usually accept that in practice they should toe the line.

stuart3826
03-07-09, 12:07
Alway mark LOT, but I like the "leave room for the fridge" line:biggrin:

Staybound
03-07-09, 13:07
Does anyone still walk down the channel? I recall most refs doing it pretty regularly when I played. I was warned off it on my ELRA course - ostensibly because of "tripping hazzards". I've done it in youth games (I am a "bit" more than a metre wide) when I wanted to emphasise my point on keeping the gap.

Simon Thomas
03-07-09, 15:07
Does anyone still walk down the channel? I recall most refs doing it pretty regularly when I played. I was warned off it on my ELRA course - ostensibly because of "tripping hazzards". I've done it in youth games (I am a "bit" more than a metre wide) when I wanted to emphasise my point on keeping the gap.

not a recommended technique and full of hidden dangers as you allude to.

far better to use the front 'markers' to do the job for you and move to the tail and verbally get 'tail gunners' at right distance too. I would never advise a referee to "walk the gap."

FlipFlop
03-07-09, 15:07
FlipFlop - you choose to ignore the law and an assessor.


Where have I said I ignore the law? I have repeatedly said I have never had the time the throwing in side only wanted a 0.5m gap, so stood on the LoT. And it's highly unlikely to happen. If it does, I'll manage it.

If the gap is not quite 1m, that is because the throwing in side has decided on a slightly smaller gap. If this causes no problems, then I'm happy, exactly the same as 100s of other "offences" that we let go - immaterial. (so yes I'll ignore it if immaterial)

If the reduced gap starts to be a problem, I'll manage it. 99.99/100 the hookers want a BIG gap, and that is the problem I have to manage.

Marking the defensive line also stops the defensive players encroaching the large gap set by the throwing in side.

The reason I ignored the assessor - if you call me for something, I want more than "because the law says so" or "it's standard practise". I want the effect on the game, why it was material. Note - his only complaint with the LO was the gap wasn't quite 1m in his opinion, and that I didn't mark the LoT. There was no problem in the LO caused by this (or anything else) that I didn't deal with effective and promptly.

Now perhaps I should also mark the LoT - but why? what purposes does it serve? No one stands there. It would be better to mark the offensive and defensive marks - guides to the players. Rather than the LoT and let players guess the size of 0.5m (so defense want 0.25m and offense 0.75m). The players I've spoken to about it like the way I do it - in defense they know how far they can go, in attack they have confidence in the gap, the hookers know they can't appeal the gap to me, but have to get their side to move.

I do my job at the front, and get out - allowing me to set the backs back 10, checking the oppo hooker, receivers, numbers (next season), and the 100s of other things, and the gap is taken care of real quick. Too many refs I've seen by the time they set this line, and that line, and the hooker complains about the gap, and the ref decides who to move etc, have very little time to do the rest.

To me, the defensive guys want to close the gap, so I manage them. When I get an offense trying to close the gap, then I'll manage them. But my technique hasn't caused any problems in the LO, and solves many I used to have.

Perhaps the best is to mark both sides & the LoT, but I currently don't see the need, and I don't have LO issues that are caused by this.

Simon Thomas
03-07-09, 15:07
FF - as always an assessor should look at impact on the game, caused or missed offences, and overall management effects, NOT nit picking on specific law if immaterial.

If the evidence of the match shows no effect than it is a 'training' suggestion, if there is an effect with evidence of specific incidents then the assessor is quite right to be critical.

Apply what works for you in management style.

OB..
03-07-09, 16:07
FlipFlop - your long explanation says you referee sensibly, so no real problem. (Your original brief version said you did not bother about a small gap, and ignored the assessor's advice :) )

Locally I do not see any referees marking defense line only, and I think it would cause confusion. Players are used to the line of touch being marked and would probably take your mark as such. Even if you corrected them initially, they would inevitably forget.


Apply what works for you in management style.
As I said earlier, I favour a consistent approach - one less thing for players to have to bother about. If marking the defensive line really is better, then we should all switch to it.

FlipFlop
03-07-09, 18:07
Players are used to the line of touch being marked and would probably take your mark as such. Even if you corrected them initially, they would inevitably forget.


Now that isn't that true. Players DO forget. Normally the prop, who is used to setting the gap etc. But his hooker or the no 2 jumper always correct them. Apart from the first LO never had to remind them, had a replacement prop confirm the mark, but they have never give up ground voluntarily!

andyscott
03-07-09, 20:07
Noticed that most internationals mark the defensive line only and then the attacking team take 1m from them.

Especially on a 5m line, the defensive team always line up on the 5m line.

Seems to keep them all organised nicely.

:wink:

Staybound
03-07-09, 23:07
Could the elite marking of the defensive line be because the throwing team tend to arrive late-ish and then throw quickly. Top teams use this as a ruse to mask their intentions. At lower levels there is less guile in the lineouts and they tend to exist longer as parallel lines ahead of the throw.

Dickie E
03-07-09, 23:07
it seems straightforward to me. "Lads, there's the mark. Use your own judgement where 500 mm is away from it".

Next thing is we won't make the mark for the scrum. We'll mark where the hindmost feet should be :D

Davet
04-07-09, 13:07
I would usually mark the LoT on the 5 by standing on it and set each front player by simply point to eitherside of me, and saying "You there, and you there - thanks gents." and then move out to my position

Wert Twacky
08-07-09, 15:07
FWIW I mark the defensive line only at normal league/cup level.

At the end of the FR brief, I simply ask "who marks the front of the line?" I then politely tell whoever that's what I'll be doing.

Occasionally I'll get a look of bemusement, but not often. It works for me becuase the responsbilty for the gap is then put back on the throwing-in side, and they're normally the ones who'll whinge if the gap is narrowed.

The defence then have a mark on which to stick to - no messing - simples!

And it also really helps if you can stick the defence on an actual line, like the halfway, 22, etc. Then there's no arguing!

If you're lucky to have TJs, tell them that if they can, to step either side of a line so you, as the ref, can stick the defence on it.

Dixie
08-07-09, 16:07
I've done it in youth games (I am a "bit" more than a metre wide) :wow: Can you post a photo? I've never seen a ref who was 1m wide - and certainly not one capable of refereeing a youth match.

Phil E
08-07-09, 17:07
:wow: Can you post a photo? I've never seen a ref who was 1m wide - and certainly not one capable of refereeing a youth match.

Didn't ddjamo post just such a picture of himself the other day :biggrin: :rolleyes:

Dickie E
09-07-09, 05:07
Back in the old days (last season) if I was TJ and the ball went into touch on or near the 22 I'd make the mark on the 22 to make life easier. This season, with new no-gain-in-ground ELV, on the 22 is one place I DON'T make the mark.

TheBFG
09-07-09, 09:07
Guess that's where Wert's way of doing things comes in;)

Simon Thomas
09-07-09, 12:07
Back in the old days (last season) if I was TJ and the ball went into touch on or near the 22 I'd make the mark on the 22 to make life easier. This season, with new no-gain-in-ground ELV, on the 22 is one place I DON'T make the mark.

Totally agree and see your logic Dickie.

As a personal preference, I have continued to use the 22m line as the l-o-t mark, but made a pre-lineout call of "gents, line-out is inside 22m so not taken back in".

or if a club tj insists on l-o-t mark 5m outside 22m (wingers foot hit line and clear mark in the mud), I will call the opposite "gents, line out is outside 22m so taken back in law might apply"