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Will
14-03-06, 04:03
Not sure if any of our refs from the northern hemisphere have been watching, but have noticed a few things that I thought were odd.....forgive me if I am showing ignorance here (must admit, my season has not restarted so I have not looked at a Law book yet :) )

Kicker hit late, penalty to kicking team, referee says "choices are, penalty were you kicked it, or scrum were it landed!!"....I thought nowadays it was penalty at place of kicking, or penalty were it landed? Kicker actually asked if he could take a tap and attack from were it landed, and he got told NO!!!

Free kick from a lineout due to numbers....the s/h takes a quick tap off the mark and runs forward, he gets hit by a player not back the 10m....the referee advises he is now playing advantage....when no advantage is forthcoming, he blows for another free kick!!! the player, asks..."isnt this a penalty?" and the ref says no! and the same thing happened in another game, but I cannot recall if it was the same ref or not, although i have the suspicion that it was!

Also, advantage play....the ref indicates advantage...and the attacking team is way behind the advantage line and make a huge kick downfield....as the player kicks it, the ref calls "advantage over"....and he does this again and again during the game, I must say I was getting quite frustrated, since it is hardly an advantage!

Thoughts?

ex-lucy
14-03-06, 09:03
hi Will
my thoughts ..
1. incorrect, if the decision was for late hit, then it is a 'double' penalty, i.e. a pen where the kicker kicked the ball or where it landed.
2. correct, not 10 at fk is another fk. Unless foul play then it is upgraded to pk.
3. correct. advantage is entirely up to the ref and his interpretation/ discretion. for me if it would have been a scrum i will alow 2/3 passes and then adv is over, whether behind gain line or not .... depending on conditions, scrum situation, type of game etc ... e.g. ladies match .. from a knock on, i allow adv for 2 passes and then adv over o/wise we would have a scrum fest.

Deeps
14-03-06, 10:03
Kicker hit late... you are quite correct Will. Law 10 (m) "The non offending team may choose to take the penalty kick either at the place of infringement, where the ball lands, or where it was next played."

Free kick, all opposition players must "run from the mark" (Law 21.8) Penalty "...results in a second free kick, awarded 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick.", however, depending on the level of game, I am increasingly seeing this as cynical "Intentionally Offending" (Law 10.2 Unfair Play). Seasoned players, U15 on up, know that invariably they will only be marched another 10 thus giving their team a moment to reorganise. If you decide that it is negative rugby, contrived, and contrary to Law 10 (Intentionally Offending) then you could award a penalty kick. I might also 'have a word' that any further professional fouls might have further consequences (with one hand in my pocket...).

Thoughts on calling advantage over; the rule of thumb really is what is a likely outcome from an awarded scrum or kick. If it's a scrum advantage called, it might be reasonable to assess that getting over the gain line is an advantage or 3 or 4 passes. It does not have to be a good or the best advantage but what you might reasonable expect to be the outcome from a scrum. For a penalty advantage, if the kick was made in a controlled fashion, i.e. not under duress or undue pressure from the opposition then that too is an outcome one might reasonably expect from a penalty kick. The referee needs to consider whether each kick downfield constitutes an actual advantage and not automatically call it over just because it is a kick downfield. It used to be said that 'you kicked your advantage away' but if a kick made under duress is gathered up by an opposition player who then advances over the non offending side's gain line then that is hardly an advantage to the non offenders.

OB..
14-03-06, 13:03
Will - why not get used to looking these things up in your law book? It helps you to find your way around it, and I agree it is not always easy to find the relevant bit. Example: where do you find the explicit instructions about how the thrower-in can place his feet at a line-out?

I agree with the earlier comments.

If a kick is not made under duress, it is a tactical decision and the team has made tactical use of its advantage. For a scrum offence, that is enough. Top referees regularly call "Advantage over" before seeing where the kick goes.

For a penalty offence it is different, and the standard approach is to wait and see if the outcome of the kick is an advantage, given that the team could expect to kick to touch and get the throw-in otherwise.

Simon Griffiths
14-03-06, 18:03
Spot on for the first one Will, as Deeps quoted, PK at place of kick or where it lands. It's a shame when fairly basic errors are made, but then again, it was probably one of the few.

Not 10 at a FK is indeed another FK (just advanced 10m), although I managed in house rugby to give away a FK, then not retreat 10m and have a go at the ref (teacher) about his original decision - result: PK 10m on from original FK mark. Although my not 10m was very cynical, so probably an upgrade anyway!

I'm not a fan of the immediate call for advantage over after a kick. Regardless of what the offence was, if you're just outside your 22 and boot it straight into touch (but the ref has called advantage over as soon as you kicked it) you'd have gained nothing, no advnatage at all. If it bounces, goes in-field or is caught I'd call advantage over for a scrum as they have territory and can pressure - from a PK it all depends.

Glyndwr
14-03-06, 20:03
I agree with Simon about the "advantage over" call.

I have seen this happening this season in Celtic League and in Internationals, too. Has there been a message from on high?

OTOH, going back to the first message in the thread, it seems the ref was at least consistent, which is a plus.

Will
14-03-06, 23:03
Will - why not get used to looking these things up in your law book? It helps you to find your way around it, and I agree it is not always easy to find the relevant bit. Example: where do you find the explicit instructions about how the thrower-in can place his feet at a line-out?

I agree with the earlier comments.

If a kick is not made under duress, it is a tactical decision and the team has made tactical use of its advantage. For a scrum offence, that is enough. Top referees regularly call "Advantage over" before seeing where the kick goes.

For a penalty offence it is different, and the standard approach is to wait and see if the outcome of the kick is an advantage, given that the team could expect to kick to touch and get the throw-in otherwise.

Because I have been a lazy sod!! No, seriously, the season hasnt started yet, and work is driving me batty, plus she-who-must-be-obeyed will deliver our first child in May, so when I get home after a long day at work, my work is just getting harder!

Our union is getting a bit more organised....we now have online Law exams that we have to do, compulsory every 2 years, but I plan to do them every year, hopefully this weekend I will get it done!

For us in the southern region, it has been a little odd to see the Super14 series start before the domestic, but I will dust off the law book and get it all sorted, just thought the forum was a good avenue to voice ideas and questions.

I didnt explain myself too well in the second point...the ref was blowing for FK after every 10m decision, regardless of wether it was originally a FK or PK offence, and this guy seems to be the only one doing it!

As for the advantage, a kick giving the ball to the opposition after you have lost ground is hardly an advantage, it has to be tangible...I got marked down last year for doing just that, in the thought that it is against promoting the game.

Deeps
15-03-06, 00:03
Keep a copy by the dunny mate; it's the only place I can get any peace to read in this house!

Simon Griffiths
15-03-06, 00:03
I didnt explain myself too well in the second point...the ref was blowing for FK after every 10m decision, regardless of wether it was originally a FK or PK offence, and this guy seems to be the only one doing it!


To quote Mr Whittaker from another thread - utter cobblers from the ref. Are you sure it was Super 14 and not under 14!? Discraceful that a referee who lacks even the knowledge of such a basic law is allowed to referee at such a standard. Send him one of your online tests!

willsie
15-03-06, 13:03
As for the advantage, a kick giving the ball to the opposition after you have lost ground is hardly an advantage, it has to be tangible...I got marked down last year for doing just that, in the thought that it is against promoting the game.[/QUOTE]

The idea in the development squad with terms of kicks like you are asking is that, if the ball that they recieve from the ruck or maul is equal to or better than what would have been recieved from a scrum then it is indeed advantage over!

jboulet4648
15-03-06, 22:03
I'm not a fan of the immediate call for advantage over after a kick. Regardless of what the offence was, if you're just outside your 22 and boot it straight into touch (but the ref has called advantage over as soon as you kicked it) you'd have gained nothing, no advnatage at all. If it bounces, goes in-field or is caught I'd call advantage over for a scrum as they have territory and can pressure - from a PK it all depends.


I disagree. Scrum advantage, the kicker kicked the ball and was not under pressure, however, he pooched it off his foot and goes straight into touch, he had the opportunity to "gain" the advantage, he just screwed it up, to me advantage is still over. Same for scrum advantage and there is a 2 v 1 or 3 v 1 and the catcher knocks on, as soon as I see 3 v 1 I would say advantage over, irregardless of the result of it.

FOr a PK, of course, it would be different. althought a 3 v 1 on a penalty advantage, to me is a pretty good tactical advantage.

Simon Griffiths
15-03-06, 22:03
Now, I've been waiting for someone to use the word 'opportunity', as it racks me off (not you personally I hasten to add, just the general use of it for advantage).

8.2 WHEN ADVANTAGE DOES NOT ARISE
The advantage must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain
advantage is not enough. If the non-offending team does not gain an
advantage, the referee blows the whistle and brings play back to the
place of infringement.
My italics.

Having time to kick can't really be considered a tactical advantage in itself, the use of the kick would decide whether he was under too much pressure etc. A tactical advantage, I would say, is having a tactical option open to you which would not normally be (i.e. flat line defence leading to a kick isn't really a tactical advantage - the result of the kick would not only be territorial - if not out on the full - but could also be tactical itself).

jboulet4648
15-03-06, 23:03
8.1 D

Tactical advantage means freedom for the non offending team to play the ball as it wishes.

PLaying scrum advantage to red, red win ball in ruck, scrumhalf pases ball back to flyhalf. Flyhalf kicks the ball, not pressured to do so....ADVANTAGE OVER....the non offending team has played the ball as it wishes. Does it matter where that ball goes..to me, no it doesn't. Is it my fault or the opposing team's fault in this instance if it goes off the side of his boot....no its not.

PLaying scrum advantage once again, red 12 has the ball, he has red 13 and 14 to his left, only blue player is blue 15. Red 12 skip passes 13 to red 14. With this pass, advantage is over in my eyes once again. Has red had the opportunity to play the ball as it wishes...once again, yes. Now if red 14 has hands like a rock and knocks the ball ahead, how does that effect Red from playing the ball as it wished, it doesn't.

jboulet4648
16-03-06, 00:03
In the 44th minute of the england/france match, England has a scrum advantage, Dawson passed and player knocked it on. After the pass Roilland called advantage over, and now played advantage to France for the knock by English player. At the next scrum, Dawson questioned the "short" advantage, Roillands reply, "I can't be responsible for your skill level not keeping the ball"

Will
16-03-06, 00:03
8.1 D

Tactical advantage means freedom for the non offending team to play the ball as it wishes.

PLaying scrum advantage to red, red win ball in ruck, scrumhalf pases ball back to flyhalf. Flyhalf kicks the ball, not pressured to do so....ADVANTAGE OVER....the non offending team has played the ball as it wishes. Does it matter where that ball goes..to me, no it doesn't. Is it my fault or the opposing team's fault in this instance if it goes off the side of his boot....no its not.

PLaying scrum advantage once again, red 12 has the ball, he has red 13 and 14 to his left, only blue player is blue 15. Red 12 skip passes 13 to red 14. With this pass, advantage is over in my eyes once again. Has red had the opportunity to play the ball as it wishes...once again, yes. Now if red 14 has hands like a rock and knocks the ball ahead, how does that effect Red from playing the ball as it wished, it doesn't.

I think we have two very different scenarios here....in your first scenario, there is no tangible advantage because if the offending team had not done something to be penalised, the non-offending team would have been on the attack or on the front foot. Calling advantage over when the attacking team has been forced back (or make a pass deep to their backline) due to a transgression by someone, and now has to play the ball deeper behind their advantage line, is hardly an advantage for them, regardless of wether they are under pressure or not when they kick it. Advantage has to be real. - on another note, what would the advantage in the scrum be for????

The second scenario, I agree with you, hard in attack, with a numerical advantage, yes, you can call advantage over, what you usually see happen (Murphy's own laws) is that as soon as you call it, they drop the ball and then look at you, hoping you will give them the advantage back!

Simon Griffiths
16-03-06, 00:03
In the 44th minute of the england/france match, England has a scrum advantage, Dawson passed and player knocked it on. After the pass Roilland called advantage over, and now played advantage to France for the knock by English player. At the next scrum, Dawson questioned the "short" advantage, Roillands reply, "I can't be responsible for your skill level not keeping the ball"
Yes, I thought that was a cr*p decision too - I actually thought that Rolland had a very poor game all round (but that's a different topic). Of course, it would also be fair to say that he performed a darn sight better than the England team!

With that decision/incident particularly in mind, it was made worse - fairly slow ruck ball, and still retreating players, taking a ball off a slow ruck with defenders advancing and others around you still retreating is really a good advantage!? I submit to the half-way house club, if they quickly go into a second contact, and get clean ball with an on-side defensive line against them, then I'll call advantage over (unless they've gone back 20 yards - in which case I'll probably have blown anyway) as it's like having scrum ball.

jboulet4648
16-03-06, 01:03
With that decision/incident particularly in mind, it was made worse - fairly slow ruck ball, and still retreating players, taking a ball off a slow ruck with defenders advancing and others around you still retreating is really a good advantage!? I submit to the half-way house club, if they quickly go into a second contact, and get clean ball with an on-side defensive line against them, then I'll call advantage over (unless they've gone back 20 yards - in which case I'll probably have blown anyway) as it's like having scrum ball.

Right but if you listened to what Rolland said, if you held it yes, you would not have lost the advantage, would have gotten the scrum, but the shear fact that they decided to pass into a situation where advantage would have been gained if based on the skill level you caught the ball, then advantage over....irregardless of whether in this one instance you believe advantage was gained, his rationalization I agree with.

jboulet4648
16-03-06, 01:03
in your first scenario, there is no tangible advantage because if the offending team had not done something to be penalised, the non-offending team would have been on the attack or on the front foot. Calling advantage over when the attacking team has been forced back (or make a pass deep to their backline) due to a transgression by someone, and now has to play the ball deeper behind their advantage line, is hardly an advantage for them, regardless of wether they are under pressure or not when they kick it. Advantage has to be real. - on another note, what would the advantage in the scrum be for????

Scrum advanatge is advantage after a knock on or forward pass. If you have such scrum advantage and you are able to get a kick off, without being under pressure, it is very easy for me to say advantage is over, irregardless of where that ball goes once it is kicked. Again it is a situation where I am not responsible for the skill level not being able to kick a ball properly

Jacko
16-03-06, 03:03
I agree - I would call acres of space in front of the man I'm about to pass to an advantage. If he drops it, or my pass is poor, it wouldn't matter a jot if I'd lost a few yards from the original offence. Advantage over, not the ref's problem.

Robert Burns
16-03-06, 07:03
Send them to our sister site for one hours coaching each:

www.learnrugbylaws.com (http://www.learnrugbylaws.com)

Simon Griffiths
16-03-06, 18:03
When I've got it working Robert! :o

The point I was making regarding the particular incident in the England match was that it wasn't an unpressured pass to take, there were still off-side players (albeit retreating) who were in the receiver's vision, sowing seeds of doubt. I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one, I usually play until an actual advantage arises, as opposed to just another phase of play. (For a scrum though, as soon as they're over the gain line, or have recycled clean ball near it, it's advantage over).

jboulet4648
16-03-06, 21:03
I understand your point and to some extent agree, but going with Rollands reasoning, at that skill level wouldn't you hold the ball?

Simon Griffiths
16-03-06, 21:03
I would certainly agree that he should have held onto the ball at that level, mind you the entire England performance was a shambles!

Following the match, and perhaps more disturbing than the match itself, I have found myself agreeing with something Rob Andrew has said (scary, I'd better have a bath):

If you look at this current group of England players, the least preparation they had was for the Wales game, when they won 47-13.

The more time they've had with the England set-up, the worse they've got.