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kielikili
14-09-09, 15:09
Hi,

following a dispute at a recent referee's meeting I thought that I might seek the advice provided by the wise heads of this forum. Red throws into to lineout and wins possession. Maul forms but some of Blue players do not engage in the Maul. They stand at the back feet. Rest of Blue team (i.e. those not participating in the lineout) -astoundingly- remain 10 metres back. Are the Blue players who are not part of the maul obliged to remain at hindmost of the maul or can they, say, retreat some but not all of the way back towards the rest of their team, i.e. 5 metres away? Can they retreat the full 10 metres while the maul is still formed?

Many thanks from Germany in advance.

Kili

Dixie
14-09-09, 15:09
Welcome to the forum, Kielikili. We have a few contributors who have reffed in Germany.

The back foot offside line is the limit beyond which the defenders cannot advance. Thye must be behind that line - and there is nothing to regulate how far behind it they can be. 1cm, 1m, 5m, 15m are all acceptable.

Remember that the back foot offside line does not stretch all the way across the pitch - it exists only between the 5m and 15m lines. So if a non-mauling forward stands 17m infield and 5m back from the back foot - he's offside because he should be 10m back from the line of touch, along with the rest of the players not originally involved in the lineout.

kielikili
14-09-09, 16:09
Thanks for the quick reply Dixie.

A slight variation: if a Blue player retreats behind ten metres after having been at the hindmost foot of the maul, must that player then remain 10 metres or can he return to the hindmost foot?

OB..
14-09-09, 16:09
Once he has retired behind the 10m line, he is no longer a "participating player", so has to abide by the offside law for other players.

Not Kurt Weaver
16-09-09, 13:09
Hi,

Are the Blue players who are not part of the maul obliged to remain at hindmost of the maul or can they, say, retreat some but not all of the way back towards the rest of their team, i.e. 5 metres away? Can they retreat the full 10 metres while the maul is still formed?

Kili

Confusion has set in Gentlemen. I think (and correct if I'm wrong) the Blue players are obliged to remain at the offside line of the maul. By 19.8 d these players may not leave the lineout till it has ended. Anywhere else, such as 10m back or 5m back they have left the lineout and are PKable. This law prevents say 3 or so players from retreating back 9m and taking a crash ball.

Not Kurt Weaver
16-09-09, 13:09
[QUOTE=Dixie;89498]The back foot offside line is the limit beyond which the defenders cannot advance. Thye must be behind that line - and there is nothing to regulate how far behind it they can be. 1cm, 1m, 5m, 15m are all acceptable.

Dixie, This is what I'm talking about in my preceding post. 19.8d does limit how far away these lineout players must be. They must not leave until lineout is over. Not a prescribed distance, but IMHO would say greater than 1M (no longer near) is leaving the lineout

Dickie E
16-09-09, 14:09
Confusion has set in Gentlemen. I think (and correct if I'm wrong) the Blue players are obliged to remain at the offside line of the maul. By 19.8 d these players may not leave the lineout till it has ended. Anywhere else, such as 10m back or 5m back they have left the lineout and are PKable. This law prevents say 3 or so players from retreating back 9m and taking a crash ball.

I agree.

Dixie
16-09-09, 17:09
Well there's a thing!

Kielikili, I've often encouraged newcomers to post whatever bothers them, no matter how simple it may seem, as even the simple questions throw up issues we may not previously have considered (or have forgotten).

This is one of them. Thanks very much.

OB..
16-09-09, 18:09
19.8d does limit how far away these lineout players must be. They must not leave until lineout is over. Not a prescribed distance, but IMHO would say greater than 1M (no longer near) is leaving the lineout
19.12 (b) allows peeling players to be as far back as the 10m offside line. That might suggest the same at a ruck or maul.

However 19.17(d) says "A player taking part in the lineout must either join the ruck or maul, or retire to the [ruck or maul] offside line and stay at that line. Otherwise that player is offside." [my emphasis]

I'll go with 1m as a rule of thumb.

Dickie E
17-09-09, 11:09
Many thanks from Germany in advance.

Kili

Which part of Germany is Leinster in?

SimonSmith
17-09-09, 13:09
Lebensraum, Dickie, Lebensraum.

Leinster is a "faraway country about which we know nothing" :)

Ian_Cook
17-09-09, 15:09
Which part of Germany is Leinster in?

I would say kielikili is a member of the ARLB and refereeing in Germany like Donal.

Phil E
18-09-09, 12:09
I would say kielikili is a member of the ARLB and refereeing in Germany like Donal.

Do keep up Ian; Donal is back in Ireland now. :wink:

Andyp
25-09-09, 13:09
If i get this right. Once the maul has formed, any player from the line not joining the maul should either be peeling around (within a metre of the LOT) to receive quick ball or retreat 10 metres.
If the maul moves past the LOT and the lineout ends, we're into open play and it's back foot for everyone and forwards could break off, retreat and take crash ball. If the maul doesn't move, forwards that have retreated 10 metres can run up to take crash ball once the scrum half has removed the ball from the maul?

and thanks for responses to a couple of other threads I've asked questions on, apologies for not responding.

Dickie E
25-09-09, 14:09
If i get this right. Once the maul has formed, any player from the line not joining the maul should either be peeling around (within a metre of the LOT) to receive quick ball or retreat 10 metres.


Andy, I don't believe that is correct. As I read it, participating players can't leave the lineout until it has ended and it doesn't end until the maul moves from the LoT (ie they can't retreat 10 metres).

They also don't need to "peel around". They can stand still provided they are behind last feet in maul.

OB..
25-09-09, 18:09
I agree with Dickie_E.

19.17 (d) says players not joining the maul cannot retreat to the 10m offside line

A small point about peeling off: that only applies if a player is going to receive the ball (see Definition in 19.12). However a peeling player can go back as far as the 10m offside line. If he goes too far from the lineout and a maul forms, he is technically in breach of the law. Manage it!

kielikili
26-09-09, 17:09
Indeed I am a Leinster referee who is (still!) living in Germany. I think Simon Smith that not even the Germans would be foolish enough to try to make Leinster (or any other part of Ireland) part of their Lebensraum.:wow:

To the particular question, this is the exact issue we had at said meeting. If I am correct in summarising the debate here, however, it would seem that the answer is that 19.17(d) prevents players not participating in the maul from leaving the hindmost foot of the maul (within a metre or so). Correct?:chin:

SimonSmith
27-09-09, 05:09
If at first you don't succeed......;)

Dixie
27-09-09, 09:09
To the particular question, this is the exact issue we had at said meeting. If I am correct in summarising the debate here, however, it would seem that the answer is that 19.17(d) prevents players not participating in the maul from leaving the hindmost foot of the maul (within a metre or so). Correct?:chin: Yes. I have to say, that was news to me. Penalising someone for being too far behind their offside line doesn't sit easily.

OB..
27-09-09, 12:09
Yes. I have to say, that was news to me. Penalising someone for being too far behind their offside line doesn't sit easily.
Think of it as leaving the lineout early. Would you have problems penalising that?