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kaypeegee
28-09-09, 20:09
6.A.11 says if the ball is touched by a non-player in goal the referee must judge what would have happened next and award a try or a touch down.

Is there any specific guidance in the LotG for the same situation happening in the field of play?

E.g. Black kicks from open play from just inside their own half. Ball heading towards touch near Red's 5m line. Spectator takes one step onto field of play and catches ball.

(a) Has the ball gone directly into touch as it has touched something that is in touch. So Red line out in Black's half with no gain in ground.

(b) Could the ref take a view that the ball might well have bounced before going into touch. So Red line out on own 5m line? Advantage attacking team.

(c) Is it one of the "restart with scrum" if not covered elsewhere in law situations. If so scrum where and whose put-in

(d) Something else?

Would the answer be different if the spectator took two steps in field (so wasn't in touch) when he caught it?

OB..
28-09-09, 20:09
I thought Piet van Zyl was banned from rugby matches?!

If it is not clear what would have happened next, then there is no entirely satisfactory way of dealing with such interference. All the referee can do is make what he judges to be a reasonable decision under the circumstances.

David J.
28-09-09, 21:09
As OB says, referee's judgement.

Lots of factors, but I feel a scrum to Black at the point of the kick would be a fair decision.

And eject that spectator.

DrSTU
28-09-09, 22:09
I would shout "Black winger, you have one free hit, make it count"

jjtu
29-09-09, 04:09
I'd probably go with scrum to red at the place it was touched (obviously 5m infield).

Dickie E
29-09-09, 04:09
After much thought I'd probably go with a black scrum at the point where the kick was taken.

Dixie
29-09-09, 09:09
Interested by those who opt for a Black scrum. Black kicked the ball away; why should they get it back? If the ball had gone into touch, it would have been a Red throw. If the ball stayed live, in almost all cases of this nature, possession would be taken by Red fullback or winger. Where is the equity in giving possession to Black, after the they kicked it away in the full expectation that they'd thereby lose possession?

Taff
29-09-09, 09:09
Why not just ask the TJ what he thought the ball would have done if it wasn't for the spectator - and play it accordingly? After all, he / she is best placed to see whether it would have crossed the line. :chin:

What you say to the spectator depends on his / her age I suppose. After all, you're not seriously going to chuck out an over-enthusiastic 9 yr old now are you? :D

Dickie E
29-09-09, 10:09
Interested by those who opt for a Black scrum. Black kicked the ball away; why should they get it back? If the ball had gone into touch, it would have been a Red throw. If the ball stayed live, in almost all cases of this nature, possession would be taken by Red fullback or winger. Where is the equity in giving possession to Black, after the they kicked it away in the full expectation that they'd thereby lose possession?

That's consistent with my thoughts. That's why I'd go back to the point of the game before the kick.

What would we do if, instead of a spectator, it hit the ref (low, hard kick - couldn't get out of the way). Law 6.A.10 would suggest a black scrum presumably at point of contact.

Dixie
29-09-09, 11:09
What would we do if, instead of a spectator, it hit the ref (low, hard kick - couldn't get out of the way). Law 6.A.10 would suggest a black scrum presumably at point of contact. Depends where the point of contact is. If close to the kick, then sure. But if the kick has travelled 30m before hitting the ref, and there's only Red players nearby, then let Red pick up and carry on. {meanwhile, glance at the touchline to see the assessor scribbling furiously about positioning and reaction times}.

kaypeegee
29-09-09, 19:09
E.g. Black kicks from open play from just inside their own half. Ball heading towards touch near Red's 5m line. Spectator takes one step onto field of play and catches ball.



Context: U15 "friendly". Last 5 minutes. Scores close. I had just finished U14s game and was watching from touchline about 20 ft from offending spectator (parent). Ref back near kicker. TJ (parent) near half way, view probably obscured. I was pretty close and still wasn't sure if ball would have hit line or bounced in-field before it was caught by spectator.

Decision: Ref trotted down field and said "Red line-out, 5m". No one muttered a word and every one got on with it.

Spectator: Look of horror on his face when he realised what he had done. Put ball on ground, turned around and walked swiftly towards the Club House!

But: At the time I thought "fair enough!", but I wondered if decision was correct by LotG. I remembered the gist of 6.A.11 and thought decision was right at the time. But when I looked it up found 6.A.11 strictly applied to in-goal. Hence my question in P1.

Having read the other responses and given it a bit more thought my view is "scrum black at point of kick" using a balance of LotG and "pragmatism" that I think I could support in the bar - or with an assessor after.

Is the ball in touch when the spectator catches in-field but with one foot in touch? Well I know the ball is in touch "when it is not being carried by a player and it touches the touchline or anything or anyone on or beyond the touchline." So by this definition it is in touch.

But if the spectator had taken two steps onto the field of play so that neither foot was in touch and then caught the ball he wouldn't in touch. It doesn't make sense having different outcomes for the above two situations.

So I think the ball must become "dead" when caught by the spectator in both cases.

As 6.A.11 applies only to in-goal that seems to leave us with 20.4(d)

"Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by Law, the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball."

So I think it is fair to say Black were moving forward. They had booted the ball forward and were all chasing it. So it seems Black gets the put-in (interestingly possesion doesn't have anything to do with it in this law).

But where is the scrum? You could argue that it should be at the point of the stoppage - or actually 5m in from touch.

But I would find this really harsh on Red and not really equitable.

So I would go back to the point of the kick for the black scrum.

[ps I had 3 days to think about this, read the LotG and the various views on this thread. No criticism of the Ref on the day. Everyone accepted his decision. Just wondering what I would do if faced with the same situation and had to justify it.

kaypeegee
05-10-09, 20:10
Black kicks from open play from just inside their own half. Ball heading towards touch near Red's 5m line. Spectator takes one step onto field of play and catches ball).


The original question in this thread asked what was the correct restart for the situation where the ball was kicked ahead and became dead in a situation not obviously covered by law (e.g. numpty parent stepping onto field and catching ball.

There were a number of possible outcomes suggested but the majority view seemed to be Black scrum at place of kick.

A very similar situation occurred in the Quins vs Bath GP game this weekend but without the parent.

Quins15 hoisted a long clearance kick from his 5m line. Bath5 attempts chargedown and somewhat clumsily collides with Quins15.

Q15 and B5 have a deep and meaningfull discussion on the ground involving a lot of grasping and hugging. (What is a good term for something less than "handbags"? "Pursing? "Pocketbooking"? - I digress!)

Mr Barnes (for it is he) is "running" after the ball, looks back over his shoulder shouting "leave it" or similar.

Q15/B5 keep up the nonsense so he blows his whistle and has a stern word with culprits. Nothing given.

So ball kicked ahead.
Ball becomes dead (Ref blows whistle - no obvious offfence/offender)
Restart?

Per Mr. Barnes: Quins scrum at the point of the kick.

Not sure I am comparing apples and oranges but it suggests "kicking scrum at point of kick seems to work" for the situations described.

KingsPE
05-10-09, 22:10
Interested by those who opt for a Black scrum. Black kicked the ball away; why should they get it back? If the ball had gone into touch, it would have been a Red throw. If the ball stayed live, in almost all cases of this nature, possession would be taken by Red fullback or winger. Where is the equity in giving possession to Black, after the they kicked it away in the full expectation that they'd thereby lose possession?

Interesting!

I see your point Dixie. However, more equity is evident on award of black scrum in my view.

Black get the scrum (and therefore chance of possession); Reds gain territory (as presulmably the ball was kicked forward by blacks!)

As a result, BOTH teams gain SOMETHING from the award of black scrum.

Weird situation though! Don't think either is a wrong answer!

Pete

Davet
06-10-09, 08:10
Award lineout to red - ie judge what would have happened next - as you do in in-goal.

Scrum to black seems like huge benefit to them - gaining territory and possession.

Simon Thomas
06-10-09, 11:10
{meanwhile, glance at the touchline to see the assessor scribbling furiously about positioning and reaction times}.

I would just put a big cross in the sheet's box at the minute of your non-compliance with two letters SD

kaypeegee
06-10-09, 12:10
Award lineout to red - ie judge what would have happened next - as you do in in-goal.
Scrum to black seems like huge benefit to them - gaining territory and possession.

The idea is to give the scrum back where the kick took place - so black do not gain territory.

Donal1988
06-10-09, 16:10
We kind of dealt with this last season from what I can remember (both in my Association and here on this forum).

Not the spectator grabbing possession but on who gets put in if a scrum is awarded in such a situation such as blowing when a player is injured.

Law 6 - If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no
infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum. The team last
in possession throws in the ball. If neither team was in possession, the attacking team throws
in the ball.

Seems straightforward enough yes? But we had a game Ospreys v Sarcens (i think) where Wayne Barnes blew for a stoppage due to a player being injured. Ospreys had kicked away possession and ball was in Sarries half with a Saracens player about 3m away from it with no players near him. Law ditates (as I read it) that it is Ospreys ball. Neither team is in possession, they last had possession and were the "attacking team". However Barnes gave Sarries the put in (equity over law) and this decision got a lot of thumbs ups from what I remember.

lawsons
06-10-09, 19:10
Before I read the responses - my decision would have been - in the case where it was too close to call, if ball would have hit line or not - to identify what side the spectator was on. If black - ball has gone straight out - lineout back at kick. If red, ball would have bounced - lineout at that point.

Team glare at supporter/sub for being idiot.

If not clear which side he/she is - scrum to black back at kick.

If clear it would / would not have bounced - line out at appropriate point.
Anyone been able to add the smiley things when writing on a BB ? Oops better not change post !