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laurencewhite
04-11-09, 16:11
I would like to get some advice on Law 4 Regulation 12 that states strapping should not be thicker than 0.5cm. Every game I watch at local level to elite level all use illegal strapping. Why do referees not enforce this law as players could be putting anything under the tape. It is a clear breach of the laws but it just is overlooked.

TheBFG
04-11-09, 16:11
remember that's thickness not width.

So the tape you see the guys in the GP using is normally 2" width but less than required thickness. Where the issues are, start with the "extra grip" under the tape i.e. pipe lagging and the such which is then made stronger with another roll of 1" tape.

But i'm guessing that you're coaching at club level ( i may be wrong in which case i'm sorry) and what goes on in the GP and what we usually deal with are different! And you could open a massive can of worms:nono:

Dixie
04-11-09, 16:11
Hi laurence - welcome to the forum.

The BFG hits the nail on the head - the Reg 12 requirement covers padding rather than strapping, and any padding must be of compressible material (we don't typically get down the detailed extent of the compressibility, using a "feels safe to me" test), no more than 5mm thick - that's about the diameter of a pencil.

Strapping itself is unlikely to breach this requiremnet, and is most unlikley to be used as a form of padding - it's hopeless inefficient for that. Where the issue does arise is the locks' lifting blocks - in my experience, often made from lengths of pipe lagging cut to fit, and held in place by tape. It is true that these are frequently (usually?) deeper than a pencil's diameter.

So should we act? Probably, in strict law. But so should the elite referees, who week in and week out allow such aids. It's not a great argument, but given that Rugby's powers-that-be see such lifting blocks on the game's shop window every single game without exception, and do nothing about it: why then should the Community ref risk his credibility before the game has even started by seeing seen to be a jobsworth with no empathy for the players?

http://www.lovell-rugby.co.uk/Rugby-Protection/Lifting-Blocks

These from Canterbury are made of neoprene (itself almost the permitted thickness), with a lifting block sewn in. Legal? Arguable, if you were to use a micrometer. But I expect they bear the iRB logo (I haven't checked).

Not Kurt Weaver
04-11-09, 16:11
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040&highlight=lifting+tape

Here is one previous thread. There are a couple more.

In addition to reg 12 and Law4.4 (g) , I find lifting supports contradict these:

4.1 (h) A player may wear bandages and/or dressings to protect any injury.

- so padding (pipe lagging) less than 5mm is permitted to protect an existing injury, not for assisting to lift unless the player has an injury approx 4 inches above the knee and inch wide-

4.1 (i) A player may wear thin tape or similar material as support and/or to prevent injury

- thin tape, no mention of padding to prevent injury -

OB..
04-11-09, 18:11
I reckon the game is safer with adequate lifting blocks. Why would I want to prevent that?

Adam
04-11-09, 18:11
Would the game be safer if all the players wore protective clothing and lost contested scrums? Probably, but that doesn't mean we should do it.

Not Kurt Weaver
04-11-09, 20:11
I reckon the game is safer with adequate lifting blocks. Why would I want to prevent that?

Rugby owes much of its appeal to the fact it is played both to the letter and within the spirit of the laws.


This is from Principles of the Game of 2009 Playing Charter.


The line has to be drawn somewhere. Imagine the possibilites that could be created to aid in lifting. Pockets, loops, velcro, stick um.

That is from me.

Ian_Cook
05-11-09, 03:11
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040&highlight=lifting+tape

Here is one previous thread. There are a couple more.

In addition to reg 12 and Law4.4 (g) , I find lifting supports contradict these:

4.1 (h) A player may wear bandages and/or dressings to protect any injury.

- so padding (pipe lagging) less than 5mm is permitted to protect an existing injury, not for assisting to lift unless the player has an injury approx 4 inches above the knee and inch wide-

4.1 (i) A player may wear thin tape or similar material as support and/or to prevent injury

- thin tape, no mention of padding to prevent injury -


So what do you do if they are wearing something that YOU think contravenes the regulations/Laws, yet it has the iRB official approval logo on it??

laurencewhite
05-11-09, 10:11
The canterbury product and Kooga lifting blocks do not have IRB approval.
The IRB only approve headgear and Shoulder pads I believe.

Players started strapping legs with just tape which provides a grip and as the game has moved on so has players creativity to provide an edge by inserting a block.

I think the main issue is that players could be putting anything under the tape. It may not be long before a player may put something hard under the tape that could cause injury.

laurencewhite
05-11-09, 10:11
Find a couple of examples of strapping used.

OB..
05-11-09, 11:11
The line has to be drawn somewhere. Imagine the possibilites that could be created to aid in lifting. Pockets, loops, velcro, stick um.
Are you arguing the thin end of the wedge? Because that is invalid.

As always we have to be realistic. Demands for millimetric precision on such things as lifting aids are inappropriate. They aid safety by ensuring a firmer grip.

If players started using dangerous materials, or unsafe systems such as loops, or excessive size, then we should step in, but the current aids seem to me to be fine.

Dixie
05-11-09, 11:11
Laurence, the tape itself is fine - it contravenes no regulation. You are right about the blocks - and the moment Nigel Owens, Wayne Barnes, Craig Joubert, Chris White et al take a stand on this, I'll pile in and follow. Alternatively, the moment paddy O'Brien or anyone at the iRB expresses their distaste, I'll take my stand. Until then, I'm not going to compromise my credibility.

These blocks have been standard practice at every elite-level game and most Community games for at least three years. Have you ever heard of anyone being hurt by them? I haven't, and it seems that the country's refereeing societies haven't either.

sgoat
05-11-09, 11:11
I already do not allow them where I feel they are too large and give the team an unfair advantage at the lineout. Indeed I told two locks from a L6 team to remove them on my exchange earlier in the year.

Deeps
05-11-09, 11:11
Are you arguing the thin end of the wedge? Because that is invalid.

As always we have to be realistic. Demands for millimetric precision on such things as lifting aids are inappropriate. They aid safety by ensuring a firmer grip.

If players started using dangerous materials, or unsafe systems such as loops, or excessive size, then we should step in, but the current aids seem to me to be fine.

'Sir, the law is an ass but it is the law.' I have no problem with your assessment OB but if elite wisdom and feedback to the iRB agrees then let's change Law otherwise it's a mockery.

Not Kurt Weaver
05-11-09, 12:11
Are you arguing the thin end of the wedge? Because that is invalid.

.

I'm not familiar with this expression, but I guess it means everyone knows the thin edge (in our case, the laws)


On any given Saturday team A shows up prepared to follow the letter of the law, team B shows up with lifting blocks under their warm up pants. One of those teams has an advantage by ignoring laws. Who is cheating, team B or the ref for allowing it?

TheBFG
05-11-09, 12:11
I already do not allow them where I feel they are too large and give the team an unfair advantage at the lineout. Indeed I told two locks from a L6 team to remove them on my exchange earlier in the year.

bet that went down well :wink:

Dixie
05-11-09, 13:11
On any given Saturday team A shows up prepared to follow the letter of the law, team B shows up with lifting blocks under their warm up pants. Are you sure aboout this? I have yet to meet a player or coach who has seen a copy of the law book - let alone delved into the regulations. Perhaps it's the result of the more litigious society over there - if so, at least there is some benefit to it! What do they make of the international game they see on TV - in which both the Eagles and neighbouring Canada flout the regulations with such impugnity?

Not Kurt Weaver
05-11-09, 14:11
Are you sure aboout this? I have yet to meet a player or coach who has seen a copy of the law book - let alone delved into the regulations. Perhaps it's the result of the more litigious society over there - if so, at least there is some benefit to it! What do they make of the international game they see on TV - in which both the Eagles and neighbouring Canada flout the regulations with such impugnity?

Good point about the lawbook,

I can't speak for others, but I do not watch the Eagles or internationals only because it is too expensive to receive. I'm limited to right or wrong videos on SArefs. I'm sure the Eagles and team Canada do it also; two wrongs do not make a right.

Not Kurt Weaver
05-11-09, 14:11
I'm thinking of making some big bucks, which of these would work?

1. Long shorts to the knee, taped tight above knee, lifters can grab baggy portion just above knee (kind of knickers)

2. Velco wraps soft side out on jumpers lower thigh, hook side on palm of mitts for lifters.

3. Double sided athletic tape (sticky on both side) for jumpers thighs. Lifters could do the same around the palm and back of their hands. Replenish tape at injury, water break, scores, etc

4. Neoprene knee brace with a slice above the knee to slide in pregripping lifter's thumbs

I'm off to the patent office

OB..
05-11-09, 14:11
I think we are straining at a gnat. I have never seen lifting aids that I thought were excessive. I do not see the point in saying 5mm is OK, 5.001mm is not.

Until somebody starts doing something like NKW imagines, I see no problem.

sgoat
05-11-09, 16:11
bet that went down well :wink:


All about confidence! Also helps that I was watching the lineout practice where they were using them just before the stud check.

"Number x, the strapping and padding on your legs is too thick. They are only allowed to by half a centimetre including the strapping, please remove them."

Job done.

Ian_Cook
05-11-09, 19:11
I think the main issue is that players could be putting anything under the tape. It may not be long before a player may put something hard under the tape that could cause injury.

Well I am very suspicious about what lurks under the bandage on Victor Matfield's right forearm. It looks padded, and a lot thicker than 5mm.

http://s.bebo.com/app-image/7924640087/5411656627/PROFILE/i.quizzaz.com/img/q/u/08/04/07/Vicor_Matfield.jpg

When he hit Byron Kelleher with it a couple of years ago, Kelleher went out light a light. He reckoned it felt like being hit with an iron bar.

SimonSmith
05-11-09, 21:11
There used to be allegations - not about Matfield - that ex RL players were putting shin guards on their forearms and taping over them.

KingsPE
05-11-09, 22:11
Some really interesting posts here!

There is NO DOUBT that any padding thicker than 5mm IS outside the law BUT a referee is enabled (indeed encouraged) to make up his/her own mind about whether this action has any effect upon the game (That good old term - materiality!!!!)

If EVERY side is doing it, as many suggest, no side has an advantage and it becomes immaterial.

Of course safety is another issue and, if they appear unsafe in any way THEN they SHOULD be removed!

If one side has them - that may be another issue???? (or not of course!!!!:) )

laurencewhite
06-11-09, 19:11
If you use just tape it provides a grip for the lifters and is fair on both sides.
I think any padding under the tape should not be alowed as this can not be regulated and will almost certainly me greater than 0.5cm.

PeterH
07-04-10, 16:04
There used to be allegations - not about Matfield - that ex RL players were putting shin guards on their forearms and taping over them.

growing up in Wigan...

No doubt about that - whenever Orrell played a local Leaguey team - you always covered up quick going into tackles cos you knew they were coming...

Did it myself, when we were banned we always swapped to local amateur RL teams to play out the ban. kept us fit, improved our tackling and running lines no end

didds
07-04-10, 23:04
Are you sure aboout this? I have yet to meet a player or coach who has seen a copy of the law book

I do me best Dixie!

;-)

didds