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Gracie
07-12-09, 10:12
Lower league game and as so often one team struggling for numbers turns up without a full front row (the away team) and asks for the game to be played with uncontested scrums )which was the only option in any case). They only have 15 players so there is no need to stop them from using subs during the game as per the rules. Home team are happy to play on this basis and a good game follows.

Post game it has been suggested to me that because the away team arrived without a full front row that the game should not have started (as a league game), in essence the away team 'handed the victory' to the home team. The scrum was being played on an U19 basis; all insight welcome!

Greg Collins
07-12-09, 10:12
What do your local regulations say for that league? In the jurisdiction of my local CB we start league games at L12 - L10 uncontested on a regular basis.

Taff
07-12-09, 11:12
... one team .. turns up without a full front row ... played with uncontested scrums... They only have 15 players so there is no need to stop them from using subs during the game as per the rules.I'm thick (but keen to learn) :D but which "rule" do you mean?


... The scrum was being played on an U19 basis; all insight welcome!Sorry, but if it was uncontested can you explain this to me as well? :o

Dickie E
07-12-09, 11:12
I'm thick (but keen to learn) :D but which "rule" do you mean?



Law 3.5(a). If a team wishes to nominate 16, 17 or 18 players they need to have 4 STE front rowers.

Gracie
07-12-09, 12:12
Taff to clarify; in Scotland U19 scrum variations are used in non premier/national games

o All regional league 1st XV’s
o All reserve team regional leagues
o All women’s national league and national development league
o All other rugby.

ctrainor
07-12-09, 14:12
Gracie, Lower leage game if both teams are happy with the result so am I.
I'd only mention it on the card if either team wanted me to.
Usually the team with no FR will lose although this would not always be the case and you should let relevant authorities know especially if they win.
Some leagues have 0-0 wins which is a bit unfair as you can have a perfectly good game with uncontested scrums.
And before anyone ask I have signed cards with the agreement of both clubs.
why complicate things, the fixture is fulfilled and everyone is reasonably happy.

beckett50
07-12-09, 23:12
Post game it has been suggested to me that because the away team arrived without a full front row that the game should not have started (as a league game), in essence the away team 'handed the victory' to the home team. The scrum was being played on an U19 basis; all insight welcome!

Best way to deal with this is sidestep it.

Tell the interested party that you are only there to referee the game and not make the rules about conduct of League games. Besides you had at least 30 players that wanted a game of rugby and you, happily, obliged:hap:

If the League in question has a score card that you sign, then there should be a place for you to record that the match was started and played with uncontested scrums. FWIW the result is a 0-0 home win.

Greg Collins
08-12-09, 11:12
best thing is to know the regs for the competition you are reffing before you turn up. Then if you sidestep them, which... ahem... isn't a bad approach sometimes if all agree, at least you know what you are doing.

We've had league games get replayed because of refs getting this stuff wrong.

OB..
08-12-09, 12:12
We've had league games get replayed because of refs getting this stuff wrong.

Surely it is because the clubs get it wrong?

My view is that it is useful for referees to know any relevant regulations, but it is not their job.

Simon Thomas
08-12-09, 13:12
Standing orders to our Society members is to be aware of the Regs of the match they are covering.

Not our duty, but part of professional preparation for the match.

We have had two REGULATION incidents in last 8 seasons brought to Committee attention :

1. a panel referee who used National Cup Regs to play extra time in a County Cup match, instead of award a drawn match to visiting team. I had CB come in line with National Cup Regs thereafter (after quite a debate I must add !)

2. an emergency re-appt quite high level referee played full scrum laws for a Ladies level 4 league match (only top 2 levels play full, the rest use U19 variants).

chopper15
08-12-09, 16:12
Surely it is because the clubs get it wrong?

My view is that it is useful for referees to know any relevant regulations, but it is not their job.

'. . . . but it is not their job.' ?

In a recent British & Irish Cup clash, Leinster v Pirates (12-10), the Irish hooker was YC'd after about 60 mins of play. Welsh ref, David Bodilly, instructed that scrums would then continue uncontested as it was claimed by Leinster that no adequate front rower was available.

Immediately the hooker returned, the Irish side introduced a replacement prop and the scrums reverted to normal.

My query is; can a prop take over the hooker's role to avoid the US?

A replay? Or Leinster forfeit the game, perhaps?

PaulDG
08-12-09, 17:12
Standing orders to our Society members is to be aware of the Regs of the match they are covering.

Not our duty, but part of professional preparation for the match.

All very well, but we're not professionals and the clubs have the responsibility for their conduct within the competitions they have entered.

Ours are to manage the game safely and according to the Laws.

Move the monkey back where it belongs - and it belongs to them, not us.

chopper15
08-12-09, 18:12
Ours are to manage the game safely and according to the Laws.

.

So, Paul, do the LoG forbid a prop to stand in for a hooker to avoid a US?

David J.
08-12-09, 18:12
No the LOTG does not forbid that, per se. It forbids a player who is not suitably trained for a position in the front row to play there.

PaulDG
08-12-09, 18:12
Wot David said.

chopper15
09-12-09, 00:12
No the LOTG does not forbid that, per se. It forbids a player who is not suitably trained for a position in the front row to play there.

Isn't the ref obliged, therefore, to ask just that . . . is a suitably experienced front row player available, rather than a prop or hooker?

In the case I referred to the ref may have screwed up by asking only if a replacement hooker was available. If UCs suited their tactics, the coach could then have honestly replied no .

OB..
09-12-09, 00:12
In the case I referred to the ref may have screwed up by asking only if a replacement hooker was available. If UCs suited their tactics, the coach could then have honestly replied no .
:confused:

A relacement hooker is a player who is STE in that position. Since it was the hooker that was carded, then an STE hooker is required. It is that simple.

Simon Thomas
09-12-09, 12:12
All very well, but we're not professionals and the clubs have the responsibility for their conduct within the competitions they have entered.

Ours are to manage the game safely and according to the Laws.

Move the monkey back where it belongs - and it belongs to them, not us.

PaulDG - I used the word with a lower case "p". We are not paid, but we should adopt best practice professional preparation and match execution (small p used !). As a Society we expect this approach for the KML1 up in the Championship thru to a level 11 doing the County U13 Cup Final alike.

I clearly said it is not our duty, but as a Society we have discussed this issue before and agreement was that we should all know the Regs applicable to any match we referee.

Of course clubs should know the Regs, it is their responsibilty - I have never suggested it is not. But we are all part of the same game and should work together - I can't see how any referee can effectively do a match without knowing the Regs that apply (which includes # of subs, man off, extra time, etc).

OB..
09-12-09, 15:12
Some aspects of regulations are of relevance to the referee, as ST says, but not all eg player eligibility, or scheduling. We cover 4 local cup competitions, all with slightly differing regulations, so we provide a synopsis of points for the referee to save him having to search the full works. In our local cup matches we always have a committee member present who is supposed to know the regulations - after all he argued about them in committee!

chopper15
09-12-09, 23:12
:confused:

A relacement hooker is a player who is STE in that position. Since it was the hooker that was carded, then an STE hooker is required. It is that simple.


So, my scenario being sub judice, are you suggesting that in similar circumstances the coach would be acting properly if the so-called 'front row players' on the bench had no hooking experience; as I thought a replacement hooker is required to be held in reserve for these more elite competitions?

OB..
10-12-09, 00:12
chopper - yet again I have no idea what you are on about. The laws require a team to be able to replace a front row player with a STE player for that position on the first and possibly second occasion when that is needed (depending on the number of subs). Why is that not clear enough?

SimonSmith
10-12-09, 01:12
What exactly is sub judice? I know what it means, but am missing the reference

Dickie E
10-12-09, 02:12
chopper - yet again I have no idea what you are on about. The laws require a team to be able to replace a front row player with a STE player for that position on the first and possibly second occasion when that is needed (depending on the number of subs). Why is that not clear enough?

OB,

Law 3.5(c) says:
When 19, 20, 21 or 22 players are nominated in a team there must be five players who can play in the front row to ensure that on the first occasion that a replacement hooker is required, and on the first occasion that a replacement prop forward is required, the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums.

I think Chopper's question might be: if a team fronts up with 5 props but no hookers, have they met their obligation to have "five players who can play in the front row".

OB..
10-12-09, 02:12
OB,

Law 3.5(c) says:
When 19, 20, 21 or 22 players are nominated in a team there must be five players who can play in the front row to ensure that on the first occasion that a replacement hooker is required, and on the first occasion that a replacement prop forward is required, the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums.

I think Chopper's question might be: if a team fronts up with 5 props but no hookers, have they met their obligation to have "five players who can play in the front row".
But they obviously have not met their obligations under 3.5 (c).

There is no sanction for not having the required reserves unless such reserves are actually needed.

chopper15
10-12-09, 17:12
O to be succinct! Thanks, Dickie. That just about sums it up.

SimonS; Pirates are awaiting a ruling on the matter by the competition’s officials.

If it’s going to turn out like the Wasp v Sale fiasco, methinks the ambiguity in law 3.5 (c) will have to be clarified too, ie. ‘ if a team fronts up with 5 props but no hookers, have they met their obligation to have "five players who can play in the front row".’( ref. Dickie E)

I appreciate your answer, OB, but was/is the obligation met? an experienced front row player did replace an experienced front row player!

Jacko
10-12-09, 17:12
To confuse the issue further, there is a difference within the National leagues. At my level (National 2 at the moment) there is no position specific reference to hookers/props, so a team is obliged to replace any front row position on the first two occasions. However, at premiership (and, if I recall correctly - KML will be able to clarify, championship) there is reference made to positions. I don't referee in the B&I cup, so I'm not sure which applies there. However, at this level I disagee that it is up to the clubs. We are paid, and therefore accountable. If we get it wrong (as has happened this season) we expect to be held responsible.

Dixie
10-12-09, 18:12
We are paid, and therefore accountable. If we get it wrong (as has happened this season) we expect to be held responsible.Without wishing to be prurient, is the payment adequate to compensate for the additional accountability that comes with it?

Jacko
10-12-09, 18:12
God no. But getting to ref on the panel certainly is. It has its perks - off to Italy in January for instance. Caldy this Saturday - equally glamorous I'm sure...

Dixie
10-12-09, 18:12
A relacement hooker is a player who is STE in that position. Since it was the hooker that was carded, then an STE hooker is required. It is that simple. I think Chopper and the Pirates are entitled to be aggrieved here. The recent "man off" rule was introduced to prevent cynics abusing the "safety" provisions. While accepting that a wizened prop may be unable to hook a ball cleanly or throw in, that's not a safety reason for him not to hook. I wonder if instead of saying "The front Row", 3.5 should relate only to props, so that any person who is STE as a prop is also considered safe to hook.

I'll be interested in the oucome of the Pirates' complaint.

OB..
10-12-09, 19:12
I appreciate your answer, OB, but was/is the obligation met? an experienced front row player did replace an experienced front row player!

This is a question of safety, not about the minutiae of the laws and peculiar interpretations. If a team is unable to field an STE front row, then you go to uncontested scrums. A player out of position is unlikely to be STE. Depending on the number of reserves and match regulations etc, they may not have met their obligation to field an STE front row. Full stop.

Ian_Cook
10-12-09, 20:12
So let me get this right. Front row players have to be STE for their position, not just for front row so:

Scenario.

► the Blue team fronts up with four STE players (a full front row and a "specialist" reserve lucy.)

► the Blue tighto gets binned. Blue reserve prop comes on, but since he is a specialist lucy, he goes to THP and the scrums go UC?

That seems a bit over the top to me!


Law 3.5(c) says:
When 19, 20, 21 or 22 players are nominated in a team there must be five players who can play in the front row to ensure that on the first occasion that a replacement hooker is required, and on the first occasion that a replacement prop forward is required, the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums.

As I read this Law, a prop or hooker needs to be replaced with a player "who can play in the front row". Surely all three FR players are interchangeable for the purposes of this Law.

OB..
10-12-09, 20:12
Surely all three FR players are interchangeable for the purposes of this Law.
This is not a question of law. It is a question of SAFETY. A hooker playing tighthead is probably not STE.

Go and read the Vowles case.

chopper15
10-12-09, 21:12
If a team is unable to field an STE front row, then you go to uncontested scrums. .

Leinster did field an experienced front row player and the ref. did rule the scrums would go uncontested. This suggests that he, as the ref., would only accept a bona fide hooker.


So why on earth shouldn't refs familiarise themselves with an agreed interpretation. The law IS confusing and should be clarified, surely?

PaulDG
10-12-09, 21:12
Leinster did field an experienced front row player and the ref. did rule the scrums would go uncontested. This suggests that he, as the ref., would only accept a bona fide hooker.

Because, at that level, it would seem that only someone qualified to play in that actual position would be safe there.

Seems reasonable to me.


So why on earth shouldn't refs familiarise themselves with an agreed interpretation. The law IS confusing and should be clarified, surely?

Don't quite see the problem - the issue about providing qualified players is a league one. The decision to go uncontested is a safety one.

What are you saying? That the referee should have ordered contested scrums knowing he was putting 16 lives on the line?

OB..
11-12-09, 02:12
Leinster did field an experienced front row player and the ref. did rule the scrums would go uncontested. This suggests that he, as the ref., would only accept a bona fide hooker.
Exactly what I have been saying.



So why on earth shouldn't refs familiarise themselves with an agreed interpretation. The law IS confusing and should be clarified, surely?
What confusion? Which refs do you think are not familiar with an agreed interpretation?

Dickie E
11-12-09, 03:12
There is no sanction for not having the required reserves unless such reserves are actually needed.

A bit different here. A team needs to show on their team sheet, pre-match, who their 5 STE front rowers are. If they only have 3 then they can't have ANY reserves.

TigerCraig
11-12-09, 06:12
A bit different here. A team needs to show on their team sheet, pre-match, who their 5 STE front rowers are. If they only have 3 then they can't have ANY reserves.

But we don't ask for who is and isn't a hooker

Taff
11-12-09, 13:12
A bit different here. A team needs to show on their team sheet, pre-match, who their 5 STE front rowers are.This post made me think. At what age are we expected to take team sheets? I've never seen a ref ask my U15 boys team coach for a team sheet, and haven't been told to ask for one at school games. :chin:

Simon Thomas
11-12-09, 14:12
To respond to Dickie, Craig and Taff :

Dickie - it is same here. All nominated STE FR players (incl) replacements (4 in level 5 Leagues and down, 5 in four top leagues) must be marked on team sheet re-match and given to referee.

Craig - they do now in Premiership (and maybe Euro Cup too ?)

Taff - team sheets are required to be given to the referee before RFU League and National Cup matches - levels 1-15 - in England, and also for all RFUW Women's matches. Lots of other matches especially youth and schools take place without team sheets. It is not an age thing, but based on if Comps Committee want Team Sheets and a match report done, so varies competition by competition.

chopper15
11-12-09, 16:12
To summarise then.

To avoid any confusion on the ref's part, front row players on the bench at the more elite levels are not to be identified just as FRPs but as props and hookers or Prop/Hooker and are interchangeable only if stated on the team sheet?

Simon Thomas
11-12-09, 17:12
for the Premiership only an extra replacement was added (second hooker) to the two replacement props

OB..
11-12-09, 18:12
To summarise then.

To avoid any confusion on the ref's part, front row players on the bench at the more elite levels are not to be identified just as FRPs but as props and hookers or Prop/Hooker and are interchangeable only if stated on the team sheet?
It depends on the regulations for the particular competition.
Law 3.13 (a) [...] It is not the responsibility of the referee to determine the suitability of trained front row replacements nor their availablility, as this is a team responsibility.

PaulDG
11-12-09, 18:12
This post made me think. At what age are we expected to take team sheets? I've never seen a ref ask my U15 boys team coach for a team sheet, and haven't been told to ask for one at school games. :chin:

It's not about age, it's about the competition rules.

If you ref a match where the teams need to have team sheets, they'll be keen to make sure you see them as failing to get your signature on them pre-match could cost them league points.

So don't worry about it until a club offers you one. If they do, it's the club's responsibility to mark on the sheet who is front row qualified so you can confirm they have provided the proper ratio of front row players for the number of subs they have.

chopper15
11-12-09, 21:12
Ref. Laws 3.5

Only law 3.5 c. mentions hooker and prop replacements by position. All other sections only refer to, suitably trained and experienced (STE) front row players.

Law 3.5 a. refers to the complement of STE front row players required;

15 or less - 3 players who can play in the front row.
16, 17 or 18 - 4 players who can play in the front row.
19, 20, 21 or 22 - 5 players who can play in the front row.

This last group is the only one qualified by position; ie. Ref 3.5 c. ‘ . . . to ensure that on the first occasion that a replacement hooker is required, and on the first occasion that a replacement prop forward is required, the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums.’

Does this mean that the last group must have at least one prop and one hooker and the other two groups can carry on as normal if they only happen to have all props or all hookers . . . both, of course, being STE front row players?

Dickie E
12-12-09, 02:12
Chopper, what do you think the answer will be?

Taff
12-12-09, 10:12
... My view is that it is useful for referees to know any relevant regulations, but it is not their job.


Standing orders to our Society members is to be aware of the Regs of the match they are covering. Not our duty, but part of professional preparation for the match. We have had two REGULATION incidents in last 8 seasons brought to Committee attention ...Are these "relevant regulations" easily available? Being a practical sort of guy, is there one website that contains the regulations for different competitions? The obvious one to me would be the RFU / IRB / WRU etc websites, where anyone (including relevant referees) could just click and print. :chin:


It's not about age, it's about the competition rules.
If you ref a match where the teams need to have team sheets, they'll be keen to make sure you see them as failing to get your signature on them pre-match could cost them league points. So don't worry about it until a club offers you one.Thanks PDG. Team sheets are obviously not something I will need to worry about for the forseeable future then. :D

PaulDG
12-12-09, 11:12
Are these "relevant regulations" easily available? Being a practical sort of guy, is there one website that contains the regulations for different competitions? The obvious one to me would be the RFU / IRB / WRU etc websites, where anyone (including relevant referees) could just click and print. :chin:

They are for competitions run by the RFU - the regulations appear in the handbook (one copy each year sent to all clubs and is available on the website for £5 - personally I believe it's a fiver well spent if you're involved in community rugby in England) and everything in the handbook is RFU website. (Book fits in your bag, the website doesn't!)

Looks like the WRU regs are here (http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/pdfs/PDF-WRU-League-Rules-09-10-2009-08-17.pdf)

TigerCraig
13-12-09, 22:12
Taff, we have team sheets from Under 10 upwards.

That is, for any competition game - and since we don't have the concept of friendlies, except in Golden Oldies, every time 2 teams run on a pitch it is a competiton game.

chopper15
14-12-09, 16:12
Chopper, what do you think the answer will be?

Using the IRB text below for reference, I'll have a go, Dickie. :hap:

Ref. ii): Hooker and prop position replacements are not interchangeable in the front row unless they are suitably trained and experienced in that alternative position

Ref. i): Hooker and prop position replacements are interchangeable in the front row if they are suitably trained and experienced in either position. :Nerv:



For clarification, the Laws of the Game (3.5) state:-

Each player in the front row and any potential replacement(s) must be suitably trained and experienced.

i)When 16, 17 or 18 players are nominated in a team there must be four players who can play in the front row.

ii)When 19, 20, 21 or 22 players are nominated in a team there must be five (5) players who can play in the front row to ensure that on the first occasion that a replacement hooker is required and, on the first occasion that a replacement prop forward is required, the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums.

Simon Thomas
14-12-09, 18:12
Are these "relevant regulations" easily available? Being a practical sort of guy, is there one website that contains the regulations for different competitions? The obvious one to me would be the RFU / IRB / WRU etc websites, where anyone (including relevant referees) could just click and print. :chin:

One of the constant moans that I have is the Competition Regs (for Community Rugby) are all over the place ! Various printed handbooks and if you are lucky on a web site.

RFU League and Cup on www.rfu.com
RFUW on www.rfu.com (somewhere that I can't find)
National Colts Cup -East Midlands RFU
County Cups/Bowls/Plates - on each one of 40 County RFU web sites, if you are lucky in your County
National Seventeens Cup - on a bit of paper
County Colts League - ours is on County web site
TVL League - on their own web site
The Shield (2nd XV competition) - on their own web site
and so it goes on...................

Greg Collins
14-12-09, 19:12
Are these "relevant regulations" easily available? Being a practical sort of guy, is there one website that contains the regulations for different competitions? The obvious one to me would be the RFU / IRB / WRU etc websites, where anyone (including relevant referees) could just click and print. :chin:

Thanks PDG. Team sheets are obviously not something I will need to worry about for the forseeable future then. :D

Come east young taff come east and see them in abundance. We have team sheets at all levels of youth club rugby that the society appoints to, and beyond probably, but none for schools matches not even for league games.

It is alleged that all BUCS games require teamsheets but I've only seen them produced in Women's Premiership games, whilst in the rest of adult rugby Sussex do not require team sheets for levels 12, 11 & 10 but the RFU requires them for Sussex 1 games at Level 9 (as I found out on Saturday) and for all levels above.

Competition regulations for non-RFU regulated competitions are all on the CB website (but as models of clarity any one document may vary widely from another). And given the lower league administrator is chair of our society assessors, is a former national panel assessor and all round no nonsense local 'Mr Rugby' if you get things wrong reg wise and he has to sort it you can expect to get roasted. Deservedly in my view. Got the T shirt I have.

Dixie
15-12-09, 11:12
If you ref a match where the teams need to have team sheets, ... don't worry about it until a club offers you one. If they do, it's the club's responsibility to mark on the sheet who is front row qualified so you can confirm they have provided the proper ratio of front row players for the number of subs they have. I think a ref ought to go further than this, as the team sheet is a key safety component you need to know about before the game starts. You need to demand it, IMO - which means knowing that you are expecting it.

At the lower levels (8 and down), refs seem to be pretty loose about this, allowing coaches to get into bad habits. The regulations require that the completed team sheet is handed to the ref no later than 15 minutes before the start of the game. Personally, I ask for it before I do the stud check/chat, so I can sort out who is who. Most coaches look at me like I've just blown in from Mars, and tell me they usually fill it out after the game and give it to the ref to sign in the bar.

Dickie E
15-12-09, 11:12
I think a ref ought to go further than this, as the team sheet is a key safety component you need to know about before the game starts. You need to demand it, IMO - which means knowing that you are expecting it.

At the lower levels (8 and down), refs seem to be pretty loose about this, allowing coaches to get into bad habits. The regulations require that the completed team sheet is handed to the ref no later than 15 minutes before the start of the game. Personally, I ask for it before I do the stud check/chat, so I can sort out who is who. Most coaches look at me like I've just blown in from Mars, and tell me they usually fill it out after the game and give it to the ref to sign in the bar.

Dixie, are STE front rowers supposed to be marked on the team sheet?

PaulDG
15-12-09, 11:12
Dixie, are STE front rowers supposed to be marked on the team sheet?

Yes.

Further to Dixie's comment..

In East Mids we have very few clubs that put out 2 league teams - mostly they have one league team and a merit table team.

Hence team sheets generally only apply to 1st XVs (and sometimes the older junior age groups).

It's therefore quite possible to be a referee for several years without ever seeing a team sheet.

OB..
15-12-09, 12:12
In junior cup games, in addition to team sheets with registration numbers, we require "rugby passports" as proof of age. These are cards with photos.