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MiniRef
08-12-09, 10:12
I attended a Rugby Ready course recently at which the tutor stated that blades have been recently banned for junior players.
Is this true, or another urban myth?
(personally I think they're dangerous and I hope it's true).

ex-lucy
08-12-09, 10:12
i dont think they have been banned. if they have i have missed the missive from RFU .. but that wouldnt be the first time.
I think it's more a safety guideline ... a few coaches i know advise players not to wear them because of potential knee injuries.

crossref
08-12-09, 11:12
at my ELRA they told us that no specific type of stud is banned, and we should not be looking at the type of stud but
- sharp edges
- worn studs that have become too pointy
- loose/missing studs
- the mythical boot with the single toe stud (has anyone seen one?)

Qu: is the stud inspection actually about the studs? or is it more about establishing the ryhthm and style of interaction you will have with the players (I'm the one in in charge, you're the ones lining up and doing what you're told)
-

Taff
08-12-09, 11:12
at my ELRA they told us that no specific type of stud is banned, and we should not be looking at the type of stud but ... the mythical boot with the single toe stud (has anyone seen one?)Not since my old Adidas Cap boots from 1980. I saved up for months to buy those and loved them. :love:


Qu: is the stud inspection actually about the studs? or is it more about establishing the ryhthm and style of interaction you will have with the players (I'm the one in in charge, you're the ones lining up and doing what you're told)-Given that I have never seen a ref actually point out a sharp stud, probably a bit of both. :wink:

jeff
08-12-09, 11:12
CROSSREF,
Yes a few weeks ago in an u15's daily mail cup game. told the player they were banned and also let the coach know as well, As this was a well known college, the player changed is boots and i give him some advice to get rid of them.
I Have the same team today again in the daily mail cup so hope i dont see the boots on this player.

Simon Thomas
08-12-09, 11:12
Boots and studs are covered under IRB Regulation 12, and can be questioned under referee safety concerns, but are not banned.

I am not aware of any new RFU guidance or instructions on their legality - but could be sitting in Hon Sec's in tray !

Personally I believe they are dangerous, cause knee and ankle injuries and may contribute to some bad cuts, and think they should be banned from all rugby matches.

ExHookah
08-12-09, 12:12
The single toe stud is very relevant in the US because that is the standard stud layout on Gridiron boots.

My bigger issue with the Gridiron boots is the crappy nylon studs that they come with, a single stroll through the car park and they have a wonderful array of sharp edges.

Dixie
08-12-09, 13:12
CROSSREF,
Yes a few weeks ago in an u15's daily mail cup game. told the player they were banned and also let the coach know as well, As this was a well known college, the player changed is boots and i give him some advice to get rid of them.
I Have the same team today again in the daily mail cup so hope i dont see the boots on this player.
Jeff, do you have the communication advising the ban? I must have missed it.

kaypeegee
08-12-09, 14:12
- the mythical boot with the single toe stud (has anyone seen one?)

-

Does a regular boot with one of the two front studs missing count as one of these "mythical" single toe-stud boots?

Serious question?

kaypeegee
08-12-09, 14:12
Jeff, do you have the communication advising the ban? I must have missed it.

I thought I was pretty well in-the-loop for rule changes at juniors and minis. I haven't seen anything and would be very interested in finding out more.

Steve Bate
08-12-09, 15:12
Jeff, do you have the communication advising the ban? I must have missed it.

I read this as a reply to the single stud at the toe question not blades?

Hope I'm wrong and they are indeed banned!!

kaypeegee
08-12-09, 15:12
I read this as a reply to the single stud at the toe question not blades?

Hope I'm wrong and they are indeed banned!!

4.4 (i) A player must not wear a single stud at the toe of the boot.

Cover the single stud at the toe of the boot. I have never been clear if it also applies to a missing front stud in a standard rugby boot.

At a stretch 4.4 (h) A player must not wear any item that is normally permitted by Law, but, in the referee’s opinion that is liable to cause injury to a player, might apply

I know a number of of mini-midi clubs that have strongly discouraged (banned!) the use blades in their own Clubs. But they run into problems when they play other Clubs who have not banned them. Unless something has recently changed I don't think that they are - as long as they are not sharp..

Also if a change has been implemented in the run-up to Xmas there will be an awful lot of unhappy mums, dads and grannies who have shelled out for them!

Not to mention the good folk at adidas!

stuart3826
08-12-09, 15:12
Taken from the RFU Website (http://www.rfu.com/TakingPart/PlayerHealth/FAQs.aspx)
5. I think blades are dangerous but people at my club wear them - are they allowed?

Blades and studs are currently both acceptable as footwear for rugby (as long as they comply with the IRB regulations below). There is not currently a kite mark for rugby boots; manufacturers self certify their studs or blades against regulation 12 to check that they cause no more damage than traditional studs.

The RFU is working with the IRB and the British Standards Institute on this matter to ensure safety standards are appropriate for the game, in the meantime Referees should always check footwear for any sharp or dangerous parts before kick-off in a match.

IRB Regulations and advice to clubs:

BOOTS (including ‘Blades’) - LAW 4

LAW 4 deals with players’ clothing - which includes footwear.

LAW 4(3) deals with studs as follows:

(a) Studs of players’ boots must conform with the IRB Specification set out in IRB Regulation 12.

(b) Moulded rubber multi-studded soles are acceptable provided they have no sharp edges or ridges.

LAW 4(4) deals with BANNED ITEMS OF CLOTHING and this includes:

(b) A player must not wear any item that is sharp or abrasive.

(h) A player must not wear any item that is normally permitted by Law, but in the referee’s opinion that is liable to cause injury to a player.

(i) A player must not wear a single stud at the toe of the boot.

LAW 4(5) deals with INSPECTION OF PLAYERS’ CLOTHING and this includes:

The referee or the touch judges appointed by or under the authority of the match organiser inspect the players’ clothing and studs for conformity to this Law.

The referee has power to decide at any time, before or during the match, that part of a player’s clothing is dangerous or illegal. If the referee decides that clothing is dangerous or illegal the referee must order the player to remove it. The player must not take part in the match until the items of clothing are removed.

COMMENT

All studs worn must comply with Law 4.

The IRB has contacted all known manufacturers of boots (irrespective of whether or not they are specifically made for rugby use) and this includes manufacturers of ‘blades’. These manufacturers are required by the IRB to self certify that their studs comply with Law 4.

‘Blades’ include Adidas Exchangeable Traxion Studs.

Referees and touch judges will inspect boots only to check that they are safe to play in. They will check that there are no sharp edges or burring etc.

Referees and touch judges will not be looking for kite marks or similar approval markings or manufacturers details.

ADVICE:

Players must always:

Check that their studs are safe to play in Reject any boots that have sharp edges or burring etc.
Ask their retailer for confirmation that the manufacturer complies with IRB Specifications.
The final responsibility is with the players to ensure that they play in safe boots.

crossref
08-12-09, 17:12
Does a regular boot with one of the two front studs missing count as one of these "mythical" single toe-stud boots?

I think it does - and actually that's the only thing I can ever remember rejecting at a stud inspection. After all it's very easy for player for fix, so why not insist?

Actually if I encounter any missing stud I always ask for that to be remedied, and it always is (there's always someone with a spare stud in their bag).

If there was a missing stud stand-off (difficult to imagine) hmm, well I kind of feel six or more studs = safe, but less than six might look dangerous...:chin:

PaulDG
08-12-09, 17:12
I think it does

No it doesn't.

The boots aren't mythical, they'd sold for gridiron - they're unmistakable.

They really do have a stud right at the tip of the boot.

http://cdn2.overstock.com/images/products/4/123/P11886966.jpg

Taff
08-12-09, 17:12
No it doesn't. The boots aren't mythical, they'd sold for gridiron - they're unmistakable. They really do have a stud right at the tip of the boot.Just like the old Adidas Cap boots.


I think it does - and actually that's the only thing I can ever remember rejecting at a stud inspection. After all it's very easy for player for fix, so why not insist? Actually if I encounter any missing stud I always ask for that to be remedied, and it always is (there's always someone with a spare stud in their bag).Serious? Whenever I've lost studs, I could never get a replacement to fit properly due to the mud in the hole, even after cleaning it out. :mad:

A Top Tip I picked up from here. Carry a few spare studs in your bag and offer them to players when you find missing studs during the inspection. The amount of goodwill it creates is well worth the 10p the stud cost you. Genius. :clap:

OB..
08-12-09, 18:12
Does a regular boot with one of the two front studs missing count as one of these "mythical" single toe-stud boots?

Serious question?

I think we agreed in the past that it did not contravene the law because it is not "at the toe" but a sufficient distance back that the sole of the boot will help to prevent the sort of injury that a toe stud would cause.

However it is a good idea for the player to replace the missing stud.

Jenko
08-12-09, 21:12
at my ELRA they told us that no specific type of stud is banned, and we should not be looking at the type of stud but
- sharp edges
- worn studs that have become too pointy
- loose/missing studs
- the mythical boot with the single toe stud (has anyone seen one?)

Qu: is the stud inspection actually about the studs? or is it more about establishing the ryhthm and style of interaction you will have with the players (I'm the one in in charge, you're the ones lining up and doing what you're told)
-

Yes, last week had to get player to remove offending studs. They were in a pair of Nike boots bought on internet for American football.

bit like these

http://ultraxs.com/thumb-851F_4B1EC67B.jpg (http://ultraxs.com/share-851F_4B1EC67B.html)

PaulDG
08-12-09, 21:12
Qu: is the stud inspection actually about the studs? or is it more about establishing the ryhthm and style of interaction you will have with the players (I'm the one in in charge, you're the ones lining up and doing what you're told)-

IMHO, it's very much about "are their boots safe".

"I'm in charge, you do as you're told" just isn't me (though it might work for some people, I suppose).

I believe I'm there to facilitate their game, not to order them around, so I'm quite happy to fit stud checks around their warm-up routines.

(If I have to be assertive:) about it, I'm quite prepared to, but it's not something I set out to do.)

Dixie
09-12-09, 16:12
When I played at L.4/5, it was common for a ref to require a few studs to be filed down. I think that was a matter of showing who was in charge. Nowadays, it's less common, but it still happens. This season I've asked four players to change dangerously abraisive studs - in one case, all of them!

ctrainor
09-12-09, 18:12
5. I think blades are dangerous but people at my club wear them - are they allowed?

Blades and studs are currently both acceptable as footwear for rugby (as long as they comply with the IRB regulations below). There is not currently a kite mark for rugby boots; manufacturers self certify their studs or blades against regulation 12 to check that they cause no more damage than traditional studs.
The RFU is working with the IRB and the British Standards Institute on this matter to ensure safety standards are appropriate for the game, in the meantime Referees should always check footwear for any sharp or dangerous parts before kick-off in a match.

What a classic kop out "self certification"
Let's hope they ban blades and go back to the kite mark studs

jeff
09-12-09, 19:12
DIXIE,
IM ON ABOUT THE SINGLE STUD AT THE FRONT, (They are banned)
The blades are not banned and its our job only to check for sharp studs and blades and missing studs at the front and back and to advise the player to get it sorted before the game starts and to come to the referee for inspection before the game or once she/he has sorted them.
And the boy yesterday with the stud at the front had is boots on yesterday but with the front one missing and was fine to play, and yes he bought them whilst on holiday in america.

ballsie
10-12-09, 07:12
Personally I hate them and would not allow my own youngsters who are now all grown up to wear them
The problem is they get chaffed down especially after they have been worn as the player crosses the hard surface maybe a play ground or road to the game
However they are not banned to my knowldege and agree with ST if I unhappy with any item of playing kit I would have it removed, I have seen some pretty awfull footwear with correct studs ie soles coming away from uppers the result is a razor sharp edge and no taping the soles to the uppers doesnt cut it with me no pun intended...
But getting back to the main point I am pretty clued up on all things junior and mini and have no knowledge of any ban
With the run up to christmas and little Johny wanting his new boot it would be intersting
On the subject of single stud in toe I did a BUSA game yesterday, and two players were missing studs in the toes of their boots I had them replace the studs before they were allowed to continue and got no complaints Its amazing where boots appear from when you say no you aint playing in them matey

stuart3826
10-12-09, 09:12
Personally I hate them and would not allow my own youngsters who are now all grown up to wear them
The problem is they get chaffed down especially after they have been worn as the player crosses the hard surface maybe a play ground or road to the game
However they are not banned to my knowldege and agree with ST if I unhappy with any item of playing kit I would have it removed, I have seen some pretty awfull footwear with correct studs ie soles coming away from uppers the result is a razor sharp edge and no taping the soles to the uppers doesnt cut it with me no pun intended...
But getting back to the main point I am pretty clued up on all things junior and mini and have no knowledge of any ban
With the run up to christmas and little Johny wanting his new boot it would be intersting
On the subject of single stud in toe I did a BUSA game yesterday, and two players were missing studs in the toes of their boots I had them replace the studs before they were allowed to continue and got no complaints Its amazing where boots appear from when you say no you aint playing in them matey

I do a fair number of junior matches as well as grown ups, and I apply the same safety checks. I always feel blades to make sure that there are no sharp edges, and I have never yet found a blade to be chaffed down in any way or dangerous. Has anyone else actually found a set of blades he's deemed to be dangerous?

davidgh
04-01-10, 23:01
Pretty sure Simon T has this spot on

We have banned them for our own Minis and Juniors at club level, and gently inform other clubs that we don't like them.

An informal ban is spreading in Surrey

andyscott
04-01-10, 23:01
I dont believe new 'blades' do cause injury more than any other footwear on a rugby pitch. If and I stress if they are kept in good condition. They do sharpen easier than metal studs.

Also I really dont think we should be banning them, even at club levels. The IRB will never ban them, to much money from the sponsors, especially addidas ;)

What causes twisted ankles, is forever training on one pitch and using that for game and its full of holes when the ground gets hard. Just to keep off the first team pitch :rolleyes:

ballsie
04-01-10, 23:01
Pretty sure Simon T has this spot on

We have banned them for Minis and Juniors at club level, and gently inform other clubs that we don't like them.

An informal ban is spreading in Surrey

stand ready for some heated parent, coach arguments at your next mini festival then
what will you informaly ban next stripy shirts

Adam
05-01-10, 09:01
Not liking them is different to banning them outright, which they can't do.

Dixie
05-01-10, 10:01
If I read DavidGH's post correctly, the Ironsides refuse to allow their own junior players to wear them, and they urge visiting teams to adopt th same policy where feasible. I don't think he said they would prevent a visitor from taking the field in blades.

davidgh
08-01-10, 18:01
Thanks Dixie - that's right - lead by example - and inform parents that they are endangering the kids ankles and knees - it works

We say - only solid alu kite marked studs - for our players - nothing else - with the amount of evidence on legs being sliced open by blades available, anything else is unthinkable - it more than halves the risk for our players

And when reffing no sharp edges etc and blades on other teams are openly criticised as potentially dangerous and carefully inspected!!


and of course green and white quarters are the only shirts that matter - what a comment about stripes - ballsie!! - striped shirts are definitely banned for our kids!! what on earth has that got to do with kids safety - we haven't had any issues yet. parents are fairly protective of their kids joints and interested to hear quietly stated, authoratative, well informed opinion!!

andyscott
08-01-10, 18:01
yet parents are fairly protective of their kids joints and interested to hear quietly stated, authoratative, well informed opinion!!

reaally, well informed? Based on what? Any medical research? Published? Other than the manufacturers huge research in sports biomechanics.

Protective of their joints? Really? Even their AC joints? ;)

jeff
08-01-10, 18:01
davidgh,
(other teams are openly criticised as potentially dangerous and carefully inspected!!)

I have been watching this thread for some time and cant beleave what some of you are saying regarding blades.

1- this all started in the main stream because of football managers, i'e, alex ferguson stating that he had banned all his players from wearing them due to the injurys suffered by his players, on the main this was due to the tackle from the way the tackler was coming in at the angle to try and win the ball,
totaly differrent from the tackle area in rugby.
and i have worn blade for the last 5/6 years with no injury, related at all to the turn of speed and find them really could in the summer as i ref a good level at touch rugby and ref around 6/8 games a week with quick off the mark speed as well.

2-All we should be doing as ref's is just checking all boots for sharp edges and missing studs at the toe or heel. we should not criticise any player for wearing a blade they have a right to wear them and as far as banning them for mini's / juniors that in my opinon is wrong, they have a right to wear them and who are wee to tell them no they cant. they are legal and we are not the irb,rfu, you can advise but if a child wants to wear them would you tell him he couldnt play because of his legal boots. (wrong and if it was my son i would take it further).

ballsie
08-01-10, 20:01
Davidgh Blades are not banned and dont give me grief about kids safety for your informed information my learned freind I spend a great deal of my own time safeguarding young rugby players and I am quite well informed . the rfu see to that as a CB safe guarding manager . and last time I looked bladed boots were not on the list of concerns
all you have done is re hash something that has been well and trully done to death BLADES ARE NOT BANNED
if you enjoy chasing lost causes then get on with it
thanks
got some real safe guarding issues to be getting on with

Not Kurt Weaver
08-01-10, 21:01
- the mythical boot with the single toe stud (has anyone seen one?)



Every game I do, the exception is womens games. Most players just remove it. Many just bought them at the local sporting store for their newly found game. If you come to the states you'll see. 75% percent of these boots I find come with "they let me wear them last week"

Not a myth, consider yourself lucky. It is the first thing I check.

davidgh
08-02-10, 16:02
Ballsie and Jeff - I wish I could put you in front of the mother with the 4" scar on her 11 year olds leg from u10s, who has just got a nasty cut on his face - both definitely caused by blades.

Forget metatarsals - meat slicers! I don't know if it is child protection, simply human protection

No noticeable sharp edges, just serious injuries, and horrified kids wearing them.

Ho Hum - may your righteous indignation isn't so called for.

By the way the ban is a club rule, enforced by coaches, not referees.

Davet
08-02-10, 17:02
If the club wants to ban them for its own players, then that's fine.

The club cannot, and clearly is not seeking to, ban them for visitors.

It does draw attention to what it percieves as a problem - and is perfectly entitled to.

It may find that others do not respond well to "open criticism", and I guess runs the risk that those criticised will openly put forth their own views.

But, frankly, none of this is relevant to the powers that referees have to ask players to remove banned items of kit - since they are not banned.

I assume that referees will check for, and ask for the removal of, sharp edged blades or studs.

davidgh
08-02-10, 17:02
DaveT - absolutely - putting oneself up for a full and frank exchange of views - though I have found most people agree!!

BACK to a more referee relevant point:
In terms of REFEREE boot checks - the thing that concerns me is that I do not think I would have found the offending boots dangerous, they were just blades and the sharp slicing edges were not identifiable with a quick running over by a bare hand, or even by a careful inspection with hand and eye, removed from the foot.

Flogging the dead horse!!

Drift
09-02-10, 03:02
Not since my old Adidas Cap boots from 1980. I saved up for months to buy those and loved them. :love:

Given that I have never seen a ref actually point out a sharp stud, probably a bit of both. :wink:

I have had players that I haven't allowed to take the field because of their studs. These included missing 6 out of 8 studs on each foot as well as sharpened studs from walking on concrete

TheBFG
09-02-10, 09:02
Guys can i just say that during my playing days i've been cut by both types of studs, "Blades" and "kite marked" type.

Something i just wanted to hightlight though was a pair of boots i came across the other day. They were Adidas, mainly black with white stripes and dark blue trim.

The studs seem to be a cross between a blade and a "traditional" stud, however what had happend to this pair was that the back studs on both feet had ripped off leaving very sharp jagged edges:wow: The player had to find another pair. Now that's the type we should be looking out for!

gwilw123
08-03-10, 20:03
I did my ELRA a few weeks ago and I'm pretty certain that the trainer said a player can have one stud at the toe of the boot as long as they don't play in the front row.

ballsie
08-03-10, 21:03
Well if you trainer said that then he really is a numbty and qoute me if you want to....

Davet
08-03-10, 21:03
trainer said a player can have one stud at the toe of the boot as long as they don't play in the front row.


No.

If the boot is manufactured with a stud pattern that puts a single stud at the very front, the toe, of the boot then it cannot be worn. Front row or Full Back, irrelevant.

If the boot is designed with a stud pattern that has two studs at the ball of the foot - ie like most UK rugby boots, and one is missing then that is not a problem.

Deeps
08-03-10, 22:03
I did my ELRA a few weeks ago and I'm pretty certain that the trainer said a player can have one stud at the toe of the boot as long as they don't play in the front row.

At the next Society training meeting, point this man out to Twiggy.

jeff
08-03-10, 22:03
Davet (If the boot is designed with a stud pattern that has two studs at the ball of the foot - ie like most UK rugby boots, and one is missing then that is not a problem.)

It is a problem if the player has two studs at the front and one is missing,
he will have to take the one out or put one in before we start the game or not take part.

Staybound
08-03-10, 23:03
I had a kid yesterday - 10 pairs of boots into a boot check - present me with a pair of trainers. "You're missing a few studs there young man" - "yes sir, mum left my boots in the car" . I thought it was quite sweet. Lad trotted over to show me them later.

gwilw123
13-03-10, 11:03
i think i must have misheard him then