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crossref
09-12-09, 23:12
- white throw in
- line out forms
- before the ball is thrown in white player formed up as receiver (ie normally the 9) swaps places with one of the players in the line who takes up position as receiver

Is this allowed?

19.8(d) says that players may not leave the lineout - but jumpers and receiver are all part of the line out, so they are not leaving it. So it's OK?

OB..
09-12-09, 23:12
Ruling 9 of 2002 specifically says the receiver can change places with another player in the lineout.

Not Kurt Weaver
10-12-09, 00:12
Crossref,

I think 19.8(k) allows it. It is the end result of the several rulings to include 9 of 2002. This according to irb 2009 law amendments explained document.

crossref
10-12-09, 07:12
thanks!

Dixie
10-12-09, 09:12
If a side tries this, remember that the ex-jumper now receiver must be 2m back from the jumpers before the throw. If he hasn't made it, what do you do? If you decide it wasn't material, then you've just set a precedent for all such "receiver encroaching" offences - you can't ping any of them while being consistent. But if you ping it, you look like a little Hitler, sweating the small stuff. On balance, I'd suggest that you blow before the catch, explain the problem and reset for the same throw-in. But as always, it's for the referee on then day to decide how to handle these irritants.

GeorgeR
11-12-09, 10:12
If it wasn't material, I tend to warn players at the next stop in play that what they did was spotted, it didn't have an effect and that I was watching them and next time i may well do them for it (words used depend on the players)

Taff
11-12-09, 10:12
- white throw in - line out forms - before the ball is thrown in white player formed up as receiver (ie normally the 9) swaps places with one of the players in the line who takes up position as receiver. Is this allowed?

19.8(d) says that players may not leave the lineout - but jumpers and receiver are all part of the line out, so they are not leaving it. So it's OK?Only saw about 10 minutes of yesterdays Varsity match (I'll watch the rest over the weekend) and IIRC Cambridge did this a few times.

My understanding is that it's ok (but admittedly messy) as long as it's done before the ball is thrown in, and they don't waste too much time.

Simon Thomas
11-12-09, 11:12
Great win at Twickenham yesterday (I was a little "over-emotional" by the final whistle). Champagne breakfast College Reunion in Twickenham restaurant before walking to LX Club reunion lunch at the stadium, and immediate pre-match drinks in CB's bar too. Hic !

Great atmosphere, so many faces from the past, all kidding each other we hadn't aged :D, and rugby seemded to pretty reasonable too - I was impressed with Dean Richards.

Main topic of conversation (99% disgusted about it) was the half million pound bronze line-out statue Baron has commissioned unilaterally to go outside Marriott. It was not a RFU Council decision.

Oh and receiver and line-out participant changes before ball thrown - fine as long as it isn't like "line dancing" and throw is delayed. Manage it.

Jacko
11-12-09, 12:12
Like the end of your post Simon. We should just set the forum up to automatically reply "Manage it" to every question posed....

Simon Thomas
11-12-09, 13:12
Jacko as you well know the higher you get the more it is important to "manage it", prevent it and not penalise it !

Too often I see referees missing the priorities and paying too much attention to the secondary or even tertiary stuff.

Mini P
13-12-09, 22:12
just reading the Law Book and it says:

19.8 (h) Where the lineout players must stand.....

19.8 (i) Where the receiver must stand....

19.8 (k) Participating players in a line out may change places before the ball is thrown

I would say that all lineout players and receivers are part of the lineout, but are not allowed to swap.

A receiver must stand 2metres away. So I say no swapping.

I got asked the question before my match yesterday and I said no swapping until the ball has been thrown. That's the way I managed it

Davet
13-12-09, 22:12
Mini P - fine, but you'd be technically wrong.

The participating players are allowed to swap places before the ball is thrown, the receiver is a participating player, so is allowed to swap. As you quote: 19.8.k

Note that this must be before the ball is thrown, and that "change places" means that someone in the line must adopt the reciever position - if they don't then FK - as Alan Lewis did today in France (unless you're in USA where swap apparantly means soemthing different).

When the ball is thrown then thats when the linout starts, and that's when the receiver must be 2m away, and only in that instant -

After the ball is thrown the the receiver may join the line wihout a swap.

The Law also demands that the throw is not delayed, so that is the tool to use if a side starts line dancing too much, but you can't simply take an arbitrary decision that you will not allow the recever to swap places when the Law explicitly says he can.

Mini P
13-12-09, 23:12
thanks for clarifying. I just re-read it and the definitions too. I admit I was wrong.

Phil E
13-12-09, 23:12
Had a situation on Saturday where the ball wold be thrown to the back pod. As it was thrown the No 1 would move out of the line into the receiver position, but only about 1m away from the LOT (where receiver was 2m away and not in direct line).

It looked wrong, but I couldn't think what law to ping it under. Having read Law 19 I still can't see what was wrong, although I am sure it was.

Any ideas?

Mini P
13-12-09, 23:12
if No1 moved out before the ball left the thrower's hands then ping him as he wasn't stood in the straight line. If he moved after the ball was thrown then I think it's ok.

Phil E
13-12-09, 23:12
if No1 moved out before the ball left the thrower's hands then ping him as he wasn't stood in the straight line. If he moved after the ball was thrown then I think it's ok.

No, it was after the throw.

DrSTU
13-12-09, 23:12
Had a situation on Saturday where the ball wold be thrown to the back pod. As it was thrown the No 1 would move out of the line into the receiver position, but only about 1m away from the LOT (where receiver was 2m away and not in direct line).

It looked wrong, but I couldn't think what law to ping it under. Having read Law 19 I still can't see what was wrong, although I am sure it was.

Any ideas?

Could have done him for leaving the LO before it was over, only thrower has the option to go there if that space is empty.

Mini P
14-12-09, 00:12
I can't find anywhere in the book that he can't do what he did.

OB..
14-12-09, 00:12
It is legal: Law 19.12 (a) & (b). Note that the player must keep moving.

DrSTU
14-12-09, 00:12
I can't find anywhere in the book that he can't do what he did.

19.14(e)

(e) No player of either team participating in the lineout may leave the lineout until it has ended.
Penalty: Penalty Kick on the 15-metre line

ddjamo
14-12-09, 00:12
peeling off?

Mini P
14-12-09, 00:12
as OB said it's legal. He hasn't left the lineout and if he is still moving he's fine.

DrSTU
14-12-09, 01:12
Had a situation on Saturday where the ball wold be thrown to the back pod. As it was thrown the No 1 would move out of the line into the receiver position, but only about 1m away from the LOT (where receiver was 2m away and not in direct line).

It looked wrong, but I couldn't think what law to ping it under. Having read Law 19 I still can't see what was wrong, although I am sure it was.

Any ideas?

Ok let's break Phil's options down.

1: manage it, my choice would be to say don't do that next time as you've got two receivers, you can't leave the LO before it's over...

2: Phil says that the player took up a receiver position so it doesn't sound like it's peeling to me as for peeling he must keep moving (as OB said) and it sounds like this player "planted" himself

3:Ignore it

DrSTU
14-12-09, 01:12
as OB said it's legal. He hasn't left the lineout and if he is still moving he's fine.

He has left the LO

Lineout players. Lineout players are the players who form the two lines that make a lineout.

By definition as soon as he leaves that line he has left the LO, he can then perform a peeling function if moving but can't just wander off wherever he feels like it.

Mini P
14-12-09, 01:12
if he is 1m away from LOT then he is still in close proximity to it.

ddjamo
14-12-09, 01:12
I see that all the time. ball going to back...man in front "sort of" peels...waiting for a crash ball or to enter the ensuing maul. I have managed it by telling the peeler to keep his legs pumping and keep moving...if he comes back and stands still he'll have issues with me. right or wrong? if he peels, keeps moving...nothing contrary to law? I think in phil's case - was pretty much the same thing - he just stopped moving - eh?

DrSTU
14-12-09, 01:12
if he is 1m away from LOT then he is still in close proximity to it.

So? That has nothing to do with anything at the LO, even a peeled player has the right to be within LOT and 10m.

Mini P
14-12-09, 01:12
so the question is did No1 stop moving or was he still moving?

DrSTU
14-12-09, 01:12
so the question is did No1 stop moving or was he still moving?

Bingo, then we can determine how to hang him:wow:

tim White
14-12-09, 19:12
With the ball thrown to the back is this material, particularly if he is standing still? :confused: (Actually he is having a rest and moved out slightly to get a better view of the action behind him.):cool:

Phil E
14-12-09, 22:12
He planted his feet and waited like a receiver.

But as Tim said, my view was that his movement had no material effect as in each instance it happened, the ball was miles away.

I did think about having a word, but couldn't think what to say to him. Even now I think telling him he can be there if he tap dances is a little pedantic.

DrSTU
14-12-09, 22:12
Ok let's break Phil's options down.

1: manage it, my choice would be to say don't do that next time as you've got two receivers, you can't leave the LO before it's over...

2: Phil says that the player took up a receiver position so it doesn't sound like it's peeling to me as for peeling he must keep moving (as OB said) and it sounds like this player "planted" himself

3:Ignore it


He planted his feet and waited like a receiver.

But as Tim said, my view was that his movement had no material effect as in each instance it happened, the ball was miles away.

I did think about having a word, but couldn't think what to say to him. Even now I think telling him he can be there if he tap dances is a little pedantic.

Hence my first option but you could have done him for what we discussed above if he become material.

As for what to say to him, whatever you like, you da man:drool:

OB..
14-12-09, 23:12
He needs to be aware that if he takes part in play before the lineout is over eg if the ball comes back his way, he is liable to penalty (unless he was peeling off).

ddjamo
15-12-09, 01:12
"must keep moving" moon walk? robot? walk? pump legs fast but move only inches?

Dixie
15-12-09, 10:12
He needs to be aware that if he takes part in play before the lineout is over eg if the ball comes back his way, he is liable to penalty (unless he was peeling off). Is he allowed to join any maul that forms? Surely that constitutes taking part in play, and is likely to involve stopping moving.

OB..
15-12-09, 12:12
AIUI he can legally join a maul and has then finished peeling off.