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ex-lucy
21-06-06, 13:06
read this:

http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/News/story_52009.shtml

specifically part one: i disagree ....

i would have awarded a scrum 5, green put in ...if i had seen it... bec of the positioning of Kaplan he probably was obstructed from viewing the actual drop... and i dont know many refs who wouldnt have given a scrum 5...

using our man's (eliptical OB..) laws of physics .. if Jack is moving forward (and he is with some force) and he drops the ball downwards .. the ball must go forwards... correct?
for a ball to be dropped and not go forwards the player must be stationaryor moving backwards ... correct?

** further clarification ** I believe that Kaplan was in a good position to see a try from a pick and drive but i think he may have been obstructed from seeing the actual drop by some of the Irish defenders.

OB..
21-06-06, 17:06
To me the replay seemed to show the ball going forwards, but I repeat my standard caveat about 2D TV versus 3D real life. The referee has to give what he sees at the time, and this sort of decision is marginal - and so likely to be seen differently from different angles. If it takes a slomo replay to see it ...

This decision is not good grounds for heavy criticism, whichever way you saw it.

ex-lucy
29-06-06, 12:06
"This decision is not good grounds for heavy criticism, whichever way you saw it."

I wasnt criticising the decision by the ref ... more a criticism of PR's analysis and reasoning.

If we look at the Soccer World Cup and some of the poor decision making and loss of control of some of the officials, one can see that despite a few poor decisions by some rugby referees ... they are a lot of better at decision making, considering the relative quantities, and control than their soccer counterparts.
Mind you, i really feel for our soccer counterparts with all that cheating, feigning, diving and other antics. God forbid it should become the norm in our game.
So, it begs the question ....

In the past, I have had fly halves (!!) grubber thru several players and go down with hardly any or no contact and just told them to 'get up... play on'.

If a rugby player went down like Thierry Henry did with hands to face crying out like a baby ... what would be the decision?

a) if you realised that no contact was made to the face but only to the chest and was 'part of the game'.

b) if you were not sure that contact was made to the face but on inspection no mark was found to the face and the player made a miracle recovery.

SimonSmith
29-06-06, 13:06
I won't check for it.

If I saw foul play, I'll deal with that as I see appropriate.
And that includes "diving" - if I think someone took a dive, he'll get a warning that if he keeps looking for penalties, he'll soon get one, but he won't like it.

I've found it's also worth reassuring the "falsely accused" - the protestations of innocence, when someone is genuinely innocent, need to be dealt with. They do, I think, need to know that the referee is a) awake to the "dive" and b) will handle it.

As an aside, I note the criticism of the WC referees, and have some observations:
FIFA brought it on themselves. By issuing mandates and reducing the amount of discretion the ref has, they reduce the amount of "management" the ref can do.
OK - so there's no excuse for 3 - count 'em, three - yellow cards!
Lastly - how dumb are the players? Seriously. The mantra when I was growing up was "play the ref". I mean, if you know the ref is card happy, and he's just booked you, why in God's name would you commit deliberate handball? Yes, you dumb Portuguese man that might allow England through, I'm looking at you. How many soccer players do you see change their game or behaviors to adjust to the referee?

tim White
29-06-06, 13:06
Feigning foul play by an opponent is clearly against the spirit of the game and you could penalise for it, maybe better to treat people who behave like this as petulant and immature. I think I might invlolve the words "DIVE, play on" and manage it at the next breakdown.

If we don't keep standards up, who will?

tim White
29-06-06, 14:06
Another thought, particularly when watching football on tv, DID YOU SEE THE FOUL? or did you see someone fall over squealing?

Unless you see the foul,how can you penalise? :confused:

Simon Thomas
29-06-06, 14:06
In both cases tell him he behaving like a child or a poof-baller, sort himself out and get on with the game of rugby.
If he disputes the decisons then PK under 6.A.5.
Any repeat 'diving' might (stressing the word might and not painting myself into any corners !) be construed as ungentlemanly conduct / unsportsmanlike behaviour and receive a penalty against and possibly a more severe sanction if you feel it so deserves.
Such behaviour is in conflict with the Game's Charter Code of Conduct
Also do him under Law 10 Mis-conduct which is prejudicial to the Game.

Tibbs
29-06-06, 14:06
I used to play the ref.

Best example I can remember was a momorable occasion playing our local rivals. Playing tighthead against an ineffectual Loosehead, I was boring so much on the hooker I was almost perpendicular to the touchline. It was so blatent, I was expecting to get pinged for it, but it didn't happen. After about 5 scrums, the hooker belts me and all hell breaks loose. The hooker got a yellow for the punch, and as the hooker goes off the ref turns to me and says "I don't know what you were doing, but I want you to stop it..."

That was it - I knew he didn't have a clue about the scrum, so it was open season! Never had so much fun in a game in my life...

Chris

tim White
29-06-06, 14:06
Another thought, how come we have seen so few yellow cards for diving? I thought even in soccer that the contact had to be meaningfull. FIFA apparently have the 'Citing' arrangement for foul play using video evidence but we haven't seen that used.

The best advert for rugby, and rugby players for years!

ex-lucy
29-06-06, 18:06
simon: "OK - so there's no excuse for 3 - count 'em, three - yellow cards!"

his excuse was he wrote 'A3 - 61 - USP' (as in, Australian #3 - 61st minute - unsportsmanlike behaviour) when he should have written 'C3 - 61 - USP' .. so when he came to book him again he only saw one entry for 'C3' ... but why his assistants and 4th official didnt help him is anyone's guess.

i pity him at his next domestic league match.

OB..
29-06-06, 19:06
Apparently (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5130166.stm) he has now decided to retire from international refereeing.

didds
30-06-06, 09:06
diving?

an attempt to gain an unsporting advantage by intimmating foul play has been perpetrated by an opponent?

Suerly a Yellow Card for "professional" (read deliberate and cold blooded) act?

didds

Wert Twacky
30-06-06, 14:06
The fact that Graham Poll has decidied to quit from International refereeing I think is a terrible shame.
While I agree that those at the top of the tree can ill-afford to make such high profile cock-ups, he was let badly down by his linesmen and 4th off.
We are, after all, only human, and how many players will get dropped for missing, say, a penalty? Not many.
I'm sure many remember Paddy O'Brien's (arguabley one of the world's best refs) "train crash" at the RWC when he did France v Fiji (I think). He didn't ref any more games in that tourno, but was "brought back slowly" again to build back his confidence.

On the subject of the football WC, how I'd love to see a decent rugby ref with a good knowledge of the rules of football referee a match! This tourno has surely shown the world what a bunch of girls many of our over-paid kissballers really are. ;)

ex-lucy
03-07-06, 14:07
what about the flourish of a hand as in the pretend showing of cards by players and/ or requesting of cards by players ? it is creeping into rugby

Tibbs
06-07-06, 13:07
ex-lucy,

I got that at a youth game early last season. He got a severe bollocking, and the guy who was going to get a yellow didn't. The yellow was marginal anyway, and the appeal made me err on the side of leniency. I made sure the captains knew exactly why.

Chris

ex-lucy
06-07-06, 13:07
Tibbs, what age was that (exasperated!!)?