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ex-lucy
05-07-06, 11:07
Sounds like a good idea ... what do you guys thinks about it?

This is what Mike thinks about it ... (sorry, that is Blatter)

http://wc2006.telegraph.co.uk/Document.aspx?id=4306EFFA-858C-4671-8A29-06E93466EE76

tim White
05-07-06, 12:07
Bull***t, why not sort out the problems of diving, players going to ground after the slightest contact AND referee abuse AND calling for cards on an opponent?

Video evidence could easily be applied in many more cases, why not ADD yellow/red cards as well.

Excellent game Germany v Italy, do you think players and ref had been briefed differently?

ex-lucy
05-07-06, 12:07
i meant 2 refs for rugby ... as well ... what about that?

tim White
05-07-06, 12:07
I'm sure it would work very well until they disagreed about something.

There is so much more to worry about that the extra pair of eyes, in addition to the touch judges, will probably not add much. A miked up team of 3 or 4, experienced in the role will probably not be bettered.

At this point you can add on video evidence.

Is this meant for real rugby or just the TV kind?

OB..
05-07-06, 15:07
Temporary expulsion is used in junior football, for educational purposes, but is not appropriate, we think, for the senior professional game.
I don't understand the mindset at all. Surely it is obvious that a yellow card is in itself no sanction at all in the CURRENT game? What is the point of a 'punishment' that may apply in one or two games from now? In the final of the World Cup, who cares? If a sin-bin is inappropriate, then a fortiori a red card for two yellows is nonsense.

Two referees in rugby is interesting, but I am unconvinced. In games where they are used (ice hockey, field hockey, water polo etc) they fit the special circumstances. In hockey the play can move rapidly from one end to the other, and a single referee would be hard pushed to keep up, whereas in rugby that is rarely a real problem. The overlap between the two zones of control would be more awkward in rugby because a lot of the contest happens in mid-field.

I don't think it is the best use of our resources - at the bottom level you often cannot get one referee let alone two. Why make us struggle even further?

Simon Thomas
05-07-06, 15:07
For the elite game (whether it be soccer or rugby) the two referee idea is workable as these guys work and train together - but even so currently Refs and TJs have there monents at IRB level !

For Community Rugby we can't provide a referee for every match, let alone spare two for a single match !

Bryan
05-07-06, 16:07
i meant 2 refs for rugby ... as well ... what about that?
They've already tried this. They did it at Stellenbosch in South Africa a little while ago and then further in AUS. The paper can be accessed here (http://server-au.imrworldwide.com/cgi-bin/b?cg=RugbyComAufiles&ci=aru&tu=http://www.rugby.com.au/verve/_resources/Major_Project_Chandra_Senerviratne.pdf).

Now, while the paper had positive reviews, speaking to Ed Morrison in Toronto last month, he said a more recent trial at Stellenbosch went horribly. I've also spoken to a referee who was part of the 2-referee system at Stellenbosch and he was very positive- players committed less infringements overall, but the key point was ensuring consistency among referees.

If we had a French referee and an Italian referee for an England v. Wales match and both referees spoke no English, this would be pretty interesting...

OB: note that in Ice Hockey (NHL Standards) the 2 referee system is new to the game, and many referees at the high level are pushing for a return to the old 3-man system (1 referee and 2 linesmen).

-Bryan

SimonSmith
05-07-06, 16:07
Bull***t, why not sort out the problems of diving, players going to ground after the slightest contact AND referee abuse AND calling for cards on an opponent?

Video evidence could easily be applied in many more cases, why not ADD yellow/red cards as well.

Excellent game Germany v Italy, do you think players and ref had been briefed differently?

Possibly. But he has had more games than any other referees (I think yesterday was his fifth) and he had handed out far less cards than his counterparts already.

The TV commentators here, who have been giving the officials a torrid time, were unanimously fans during and after the game.

Joop
11-07-06, 21:07
I have tried the two ref thing at a FIRA-AER U17 stage. The pitch was split down the middle parallel to the touchline and each ref was reponsible for a half. I did not like the set-up. To many clashes like a strong personality referee completly taking over the entire match, or ref's making calls 30 meters from the situation while their collegue was happy with the situation.

outofpuff
11-07-06, 23:07
In each game every player is allowed one major 'co*k-up'. So if the referee makes 29 he's still one up.
With two refs does that mean we can make 59 co*k-up's and still be in front?

SONA
27-07-06, 15:07
Where do you get what?

Simon Griffiths
27-07-06, 15:07
I don't agree with two referees for rugby. Especially at community level (for the reasons that OB and Simon lay out). But Joop's point is interesting too, and one that I could easily see happening when one referee tries to dominate or likewise. Even at elite level I don't see any point really - as the likes of White, Spreadbury and Pearson seem to do quite well on their own with two miked up TJs - as Tim says, probably the best set up.

ex-lucy
27-07-06, 16:07
well i think the oppo noddy, see Jutge on Sunday. These guys arent as fit/fast as the players and cant keep up. Jutge wasnt near the 'near try' from Williams/Cocopops(?) and went upstairs and was saved pragmatically by TMO from an embarrassing decision.
We could get a very dodgy result shaking decision very soon because the ref wasnt up with play due to interception/ break away etc. 2 refs would mean more chance of a ref being there.

OB..
27-07-06, 16:07
Jutge wasnt near the 'near try' from Williams/Cocopops(?) and went upstairs and was saved pragmatically by TMO from an embarrassing decision.Why embarrassing? That is part of the TMO's job, and if he did it satisfactorily, why do we need a second referee on the pitch?

Sevens is even faster, and goal judges have got round the problem there.

There have been experiments, but I am not sure of their value. It would take some time for officials and players to get used to whatever system they worked out. However I suspect that developing the role of the TJs would do just as well.

ex-lucy
27-07-06, 16:07
OB.. yep, try judges would be good. but you would need 2 more officials, 2 refs would mean 1 more official. At the top i can see try judges as in 7s being good but at Level 3 in England?
"Why embarrassing? That is part of the TMO's job"
From what i u/stand it is the TMO's job to decide on matters whether a score was made and NOT whether a knock on was made before the line. That is the ref's job. So in that case a knock on was made before the line which the ref and TJ didnt see but a touch down was made over the line so according to protocol a try, pragmatically TMO said No.

OB..
27-07-06, 16:07
I also advocate extending (cautiously) the role of the TMO. I think that was a good example, rather than evidence that you need an extra ref on the field.

Fabio
27-07-06, 22:07
I can't see how 2 refs would work... What would happen if one ref played advantage to Blue because Gold tackled player didn't release the ball and the other ref played advantage to Gold, because Blue didn't went into the tackle zone through the gate?? How embarassing would it be?!?

However, I do feel tempted to propose this: we stay with only one ref as it is today, only one sole judge of matter and fact. Instead of placing another ref on the field, there will be only another pair of eyes, much like a TJ, but much closer to the action!! There would still be only one referee, but this auxiliar official could advise the referee about things he might have not seen.

I believe that, if another official is to be brought to the pitch, this is a much better way of making it work than having two referees with the same power.

Robert Burns
07-08-06, 15:08
Interestingly,

Touch Rugby uses a Dual refereeing system to good effect, and in top games a tri-refereeing system.

However there is only 1 referee at a time, when he would be at one end of the field and there is a turn over another referee would come on calling the other ref off who would effectivly become a TJ for that 'phase' (For want of a better word). It means there is always a referee up with play and the referees do not get puffed out as quickly in this very fast moving game.

So, could it work in 15RU?

Of course it could, if you really wanted it too, but as was said before we have a TMO and the refs are miked up (which they are not in touch) so it would probably not make a huge amount of difference.

Hope that helps!

ExHookah
07-08-06, 16:08
I think that extending the use of input from TJ's would probably achieve what you want here, and I feel as if we're almost there already.

The big thing is that "TV rugby" and "real rugby" are different animals. TMO's are only available at the very top, a level that only a handful of us will ever reach.

Teams of three are rarely available to most of us, but officiating a match with a team of three definitely changes things, and it makes life easier in some ways, but also adds some complexity to the situation.