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andyo
18-07-06, 14:07
Questions 218 and 404 appear to contradict one another.

One states that a free kick is awarded to blue 8 metres inside their in goal area and therefore the opposition must stand on the 5 metre line. Law 21.8a

The other question states that for free and penalty kick offences in goal the place for the kick can only be awarded between the the goal line and opposition 5 metre line. Law 21.2a+b

I can't see that you can award the free kick in the first scenario as it is in direct contravention of the second. Surely the free kick must be advanced to blue's goal line!!

ex-lucy
18-07-06, 14:07
i think this is a case of who has been awarded the FK, the attacking team or the defending team.
The attacking team cannot be awarded a PK/FK within 5m of the oppo try line but, i believe, a defending team can be awarded a PK/FK behind their goal line.
See Eng v Oz last autumn, Latham, i believe, caught a ball behind his try line and called for the mark. The mark for the mark was made by the ref between the try line and the dead ball line.
But i believe that the oppo only have to back off 10m from the mark, which may or may not be the 5m line.

Davet
18-07-06, 14:07
If Blue get a PK or FK awarded in their in-goal then the mark is on the 5m line, but they may take it on or behind the mark, so may take the kick in in-goal See 21.2.a & b; and the implication of 21.4.f

Note that the Mark is on the 5m Line - For a PK Red must therefore be 10m back from the Mark 21.7.a - so must be a minimum of 15m from Blue's goal line. For an FK then 21.8.a applies - and is different - they only have to retire as far as the 5m mark - so long as they are at least 10m back from where the kick is being taken from (NOT the mark, which remains on the 5m line 21.2.b). (So kick from 2m into in-goal they must go back 8m; if 5m or deeper in in-goal then only back to the 5m line; kick from "mark" then they must be 15 out from goal-line.).

I would suggest that most captains who want to get distance on a kick would always take the FK (or PK) from the mark - which is on the 5m line. It is possible for the place of infringement to be say 21.9 metres into in-goal - coming out to the 5m line gives the defenders a considerable distance advantage.

If Red were awared a FK or PK in Blue's in-goal then they have to come out to 5m line to take it. 21.2.a. Blue must retire to their goal-line 21.7.a

Bryan
18-07-06, 16:07
I disagree Dave. Have a look at this slide here (http://www.ffr.fr/var/corporate/storage/original/application/8149b45777a44a44f8cca72485ee84d0.pdf)from the FFR. It may be in French, but I think you can get the jist of it.

It says that if a mark is awarded in the in-goal, the place for the mark is where the mark is awarded (à l’endroit où l’arrêt de volée a été effectué.) This then seems to contradict Law 21.2b, as under Law 18.2 it says the kick is taken where the mark was made. I suspect that for a FK off a mark, this is an exception under law.

It then says that the opposition must retire 10m from the mark and at least 5m from the goal line. [à 10 mètres du point de marque (avec un minimum de 5 mètres de la ligne de but)]

Davet
18-07-06, 16:07
I'm not sure we are disagreeing.

The kick after a call of "Mark" would be taken at the place where the clean catch was made. That's fine... once awarde then the FK provisions apply to the kick itself, rather than the place of the kick.

But I was referring to a FK offence committed by the attackers in in-goal; when the mark for the kick is on the 5m line; though the kick may be taken behind the mark. If it is then the attackers must be 10m back from the place of the kick, and at least 5m from the goal-line.

Bryan
18-07-06, 17:07
I'm not sure we are disagreeing.
The kick after a call of "Mark" would be taken at the place where the clean catch was made. That's fine... once awarde then the FK provisions apply to the kick itself, rather than the place of the kick.

...kick from "mark" then they must be 15 out from goal-line

I disagree with this last statement. if I call for a mark in a deep in-goal (say 15 m in from the goal-line), I am awarded the mark at that place and that is where the kick is taken. The opposition are only obliged to retreat to the 5m line, NOT the 15 as you refer to above.

-Bryan

Davet
18-07-06, 18:07
Bryan - I repeat I am NOT talking about kick following a call of "Mark!"

I am talking about a Free Kick (other than for a clean catch) awarded in in-goal.

I keep using the word mark because that is what the Law calls the place where a Free Kick is to be taken from. I put it in quotes in my earlier post because I was quoting Law, not in an attempt to indicate direct speech. If that has caused confusion I apologise.

Bryan
18-07-06, 18:07
Yeah that clears it up. For future reference, use "Mark!" to distinguish anything under Law 18, and "mark" to refer to the "mark where the kick is taken".

If there's anyone on this forum called Mark, then we're now going to call you Jim-Bob.

-Bryan

OB..
18-07-06, 20:07
The relevant bits of law?

For Penalties or Free Kicks awarded for an infringement, the situation is clear:
21.1 Unless a Law states otherwise, the mark for a penalty or free kick is at the place of infringement.

There is a well known exception:
21.2 (a) […] If the place for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents’ goal-line, the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal-line, opposite the place of infringement.

Here is another:
21.2 (b) When a penalty or free kick is awarded for an infringement in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal-line, in line with the place of infringement.

This is underlined in Law 22 In-Goal:
22.15 Penalty: For an infringement, the mark for a penalty kick or free kick cannot be in the in-goal.

Note the constant reference to an "infringement". Since a Mark is not an infringement, these paragraphs do not apply. The Free Kick following a Mark is therefore different:
Law 18 definitions: A player from the defending team may make a mark in in-goal.
18.2 The kick is awarded at the place of the mark.

Since there is nothing else, a Free Kick following a Mark can be awarded in in-goal.

18.5 HOW THE KICK IS TAKEN
The provisions of Law 21 - Free Kicks - apply to a kick awarded after a mark.
Note that this refers to "how" the kick is taken, not "where" it is taken, so not all of Law 21 applies, as pointed out above.

This determines where the opposition can stand for a Mark made in in-goal:
21.8 (a) […] If the free kick is in a defending teams in-goal area, the opposing team must immediately run towards their own goal-line until they are at least 10 metres away from the mark and not nearer than 5 metres from the goal-line.

gillburt
17-10-08, 15:10
A hypothetical this one... but follows on from this discussion

Assuming a deep In-Goal area, if the defending team (blue) is awarded a FK or gains a "mark" in the IG area, and then elect (for whatever reason) for a scrum, the scrum takes place 5m from their goal-line.

That's my read of the law-book anyway... others concur?

Thanks

Cymro
17-10-08, 16:10
yes 18.6(b)

Not Kurt Weaver
17-10-08, 17:10
Here is another hypothetical that could actually happen ?

A Mark is awarded in-goal. FK is tapped and dotted down in goal. 22m or 5m scrum to attacking?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
17-10-08, 18:10
A Mark is awarded in-goal. FK is tapped and dotted down in goal. 22m or 5m scrum to attacking?



That's a good un!

:chin: Top of me head not looking in the book - 22

OB..
17-10-08, 21:10
5m attacking scrum.

This has actually happened. Matt Burke spoke to the referee while a player was being attended to for an injury and was clearly told that if he tapped and grounded, it would be a 5m scrum, not a 22.

The rationale is that he is restarting play, so the previous play does not count.