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Casey Bee
30-03-10, 06:03
Seem to be seeing this far more often and I must say, when watching games I find it pretty irritating. Actually on Sat whilst refereeing it came up and was complained about by the opposition.

At a line out, the throw in team go 2-3 metres back from LoT and get in a huddle to discuss / arrange their call while the defence are all in place and ready to play. This huddle seems to take an age to agree their call, in reality it may be 20-30 seconds(?) As I state above, when watching a game, this really bugs me, it does seem to really slow the game play, even if that is not the intention.
What are people's thoughts from a refereeing perspective?

Drift
30-03-10, 06:03
I would allow them but then let them know at the next one we need them in quicker.
Also at the weekend I had a call which went for around 20 seconds which I blew up as delaying as a 20 second call is just delaying tactics IMO

Ian_Cook
30-03-10, 07:03
Really well organised teams have a set of predetermined calls which they decide on as they are walking towards the line-out. Everyone already knows what the call is before they arrive at the LoT.

You watch the Bulls or the Crusaders. One player makes the call (for the Bulls its Victor Matfield or Bakkies, for the Crusaders its usually Isaac Ross or Brad Thorn. They arrive and the ball is straight in, often before the opposition are even ready.

stuart3826
30-03-10, 08:03
This even happens in the GP - anything to delay and run off the clock a little. I can remember Quins being pinged for it earlier this season after they delayed every line out for 20 minutes.

Taff
30-03-10, 10:03
.... I can remember Quins being pinged for it ... after they delayed every line out for 20 minutes.:wow: I assume that's a typo. :wink:

Ben Wiles
30-03-10, 10:03
I think he meant they delayed every lineout, over a 20 minute period of the game, and therefore the referee finally lost patience with them - rather than delaying one lineout for 20 minutes! Having said that maybe the one lineout kept getting delayed by blood injuries! :wink:

Davet
30-03-10, 10:03
Teams often do this simply to help them with lineout timing - quick huddle - hooker is usually not part of it and is gettimg ready to throw, members of the LO then come to the line as a unit and as soon as they get there hooker throws.

I have no problem with this - if two provisos are made:

1) The huddle is a quick huddle
2) if they come short handed I will not allow the throw until the opposition has had chance to balance numbers, as required by Law.

FlipFlop
30-03-10, 10:03
With a huddle I'll quickly ask them to form the line (Ask), then if they make no move I'll tell them to form the line (Tell), and if they still make no move then the whistle goes.

If I get to Tell, then I also have words with the captain that next time they had better be quicker. Then I reduce it to the Tell and Penalise phases.

Generally after 1 FK, they don't delay again!

Simon Thomas
30-03-10, 14:03
I am in the very low tolerance of "delaying line out by pre-huddle camp".
I am OK with it if it is very fast indeed (a couple of seconds), and as Dave says is used as the trigger to throw, but if it gives an unfair advantage to atacking side I am less tolerant.

If used and attacking numbers are reduced and defensive side have no time to drop one or more players, I will call "numbers not applying".

Manage it to your satisfaction and standards, keeping it legal and an open contest.

Davet
30-03-10, 15:03
If used and attacking numbers are reduced and defensive side have no time to drop one or more players, I will call "numbers not applying".


Simon - I agree that numbers would not be given if the huddlers come up short handed. But this ploy may not simply be an attempt to wangle a FK, ineed most teams will be happy to forego that if you tell their actions preclude it.

But, I do think they may still be trying to take advantage - they now have an overlap somewhere out wide, which if they get quick ball off the back they can probably make use of.

Is there not a case for delaying the Lineout-perhaps with eg ref calling "Only 5 in", until the opposition have chance to adjust to numbers so that they aren't disadvantaged out wide by the quick approach and throw.

Simon Thomas
30-03-10, 15:03
DaveT - I have used the delay the throw and allow defenders to get numbers right technique and it is a valid management approach, and if it works no problem if others use it.

However I don't like the pre line-out huddle anyway so tend to adopt the position I mentioned above in personal preference.

Davet
30-03-10, 15:03
Simon

Like you I have used both methods and seen both work.

My small concern was prompted by a discussion, some years ago, with the coach of a team who did it habitually - I wasn't reffing, just watching, and said - something along the lines of "You'll never get a ref to give you numbers if you do that", he replied "Well, it has happened, but that's not really the point - we want them to have players tied in to the lineout - we can spin it wide quick and take them on the far side"

Ah - thought I, I'll remember that.

OB..
30-03-10, 15:03
Law 19.8 (e) allows you to award a FK if the defending side is not given time to adjust. If the throwing side tries to benefit from it you could call them back for the FK (possibly having called advantage first).

Davet
30-03-10, 15:03
OB - yes.

Though I may prefer to simply manage it in the first instance.

Taff
30-03-10, 16:03
Law 19.8 (e) allows you to award a FK if the defending side is not given time to adjust. If the throwing side tries to benefit from it you could call them back for the FK ....Captain Slow here. :o So if the throwing side have fewer numbers in the line, they can't throw it in straight away as they have to give the opposition a "reasonable" chance to reduce their numbers? And if they do chuck it in sharpish, it's a FK against them? Correct? :chin:

OB..
30-03-10, 16:03
Yes..

Simon Thomas
30-03-10, 16:03
Captain Slow here. :o So if the throwing side have fewer numbers in the line, they can't throw it in straight away as they have to give the opposition a "reasonable" chance to reduce their numbers? And if they do chuck it in sharpish, it's a FK against them? Correct? :chin:

Yes - possible FK or manage it first. Your choice as referee.

Casey Bee
30-03-10, 16:03
Captain Slow here. :o So if the throwing side have fewer numbers in the line, they can't throw it in straight away as they have to give the opposition a "reasonable" chance to reduce their numbers? And if they do chuck it in sharpish, it's a FK against them? Correct? :chin:

(c) The opposing team may have fewer lineout players but they must not have more.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
(d) When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do
so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay.
Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the
lineout until the lineout has ended.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
(e) If the team throwing in the ball put fewer than the usual number of players in the lineout,
their opponents must be given a reasonable time to move enough players out of the lineout
to satisfy this Law.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
(f) These players must leave the lineout without delay. They must move to the offside line, 10
metres behind the line of touch. If the lineout ends before they reach this line, they may
rejoin play.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line
(g) Failure to form a lineout. A team must not voluntarily fail to form a lineout.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line


Extract from 19.8 to consider.

OB..
30-03-10, 17:03
The FK is a good riposte to a team that runs in with fewer than the usual number of players, throws in quickly and shouts "Numbers Ref". You duly give the FK. Against them.

Taff
30-03-10, 17:03
The FK is a good riposte to a team that runs in with fewer than the usual number of players, throws in quickly and shouts "Numbers Ref". You duly give the FK. Against them.Ha. Talk about a tactic coming back to bite you on the arse. :rolleyes: That's what I was thinking in post 15 above. :wink:

Hell. I've got to remember this one. :D