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Thread: held up and touch in goal at same time

      
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    Default held up and touch in goal at same time

    so this happened to me yesterday..

    winger crosses the try line simultaneously being tackled by two defenders. the players hit the ground in goal, ... during the small time that one would allow the ball-carrier to attempt to ground the ball immediately (a second or two I guess?) the momentum and his wriggle carries his foot into touch in goal.

    The tacklers had a good grip on the ball carrier and ball he doesn't manage ground it. Blow the whistle.

    Held up, 5m scrum... or touch in goal, 22m drop out?

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    Default Re: held up and touch in goal at same time

    Sequence of events -
    1) Held up in goal
    2) Goes touch in goal

    I would suggest that that the sequence determines the award, you were allowing a short space of time to see if he could score the try (this should never be anything more than a very short space of time - no tackle etc in in goal, but use "immediate" as your yardstick anyway).

    Having allowed him that short space of time he then goes TiG.

    To go from allowing a short space of time to get a try and then end up with a 22 DO seems odd.

    1st thing that happened was held up in goal - so I would suggest the 5m scrum is the appropriate result.
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    Default Re: held up and touch in goal at same time

    Given that the ball was taken into touch in goal "simultaneously" as you put it, I would vote for a 22 drop out. The attacking team took it into touch in-goal. As the momentum took him into touch in-goal, he didn't have much of a chance to ground it.

    For what it's worth (you've got more experience than me) the trick seems to be to explain your thinking. As long as you can explain why you've given a DO or a 5m scrum players generally seem to accept it. Someones going to shoot me down in flames now.

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    Last edited by Taff; 21-02-11 at 12:02.
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    Default Re: held up and touch in goal at same time

    Quote Originally Posted by Davet View Post
    Sequence of events -
    1) Held up in goal
    2) Goes touch in goal

    ....
    I think this is a "have to see it to judge" thing.

    If the defending team have bundled the attacker into TiG, shouldn't they get credit for that? 22m

    Or if the attacker was held up and then his foot went on the line, 5m.

    Depends on the exact sequence of events.

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    Default Re: held up and touch in goal at same time

    I'm simply going on the description which was:
    1) Players are in goal
    2) Ball carrier is brought to ground in in goal, but cannot ground ball
    3) After a short time the ball carrier goes TiG

    Seems simple enough - "held up first, 5m scrum"

    If the ball carrier had not been brought to ground but bundled straight out the fine, 22 DO
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    Default Re: held up and touch in goal at same time

    Quote Originally Posted by Davet View Post
    I'm simply going on the description which was:
    1) Players are in goal
    2) Ball carrier is brought to ground in in goal, but cannot ground ball
    3) After a short time the ball carrier goes TiG

    Seems simple enough - "held up first, 5m scrum"

    If the ball carrier had not been brought to ground but bundled straight out the fine, 22 DO
    That's the way I see it as well
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    Default Re: held up and touch in goal at same time

    it WAS all very quick, I was allowing the ball carrier enough time to ground it 'immediately' (however long that is) and the sequence was as Davet concisely describes.

    I gave a 5m scrum.

    I am not sure I explained completely clearly - but on the other hand the players/coaches didn't object, so presumably well enough. (Altho most of them probably aren't even thinking about it - they are all focused on try/no try .... which wasn't in question)

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    Default Re: held up and touch in goal at same time

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    it WAS all very quick, I was allowing the ball carrier enough time to ground it 'immediately' (however long that is) and the sequence was as Davet concisely describes.

    I gave a 5m scrum.

    I am not sure I explained completely clearly - but on the other hand the players/coaches didn't object, so presumably well enough. (Altho most of them probably aren't even thinking about it - they are all focused on try/no try .... which wasn't in question)
    Did you "peep" and give signal 42 etc? Did anyone say "but he's in touch"?

    If so there's probably only you that's bothered about it.

    5m scrum seems fine.
    Last edited by Lee Lifeson-Peart; 21-02-11 at 12:02.
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    Default Re: held up and touch in goal at same time

    My first thought (which I'd probably have gone with on the day) was TIG 22m drop-out, in that the player who took it in was bundled into touch before he could score. However, Davet's argument cnvinces me that the better view is to restart with a 5m scrum - held-up. The fact that after being held up he then went into in-goal should be immaterial.

    It would be different with a maul. If a maul went TIG before I could blow it up as futile, I'd go with TIG. Not entirely sure I can rationalise the distinction adequately - I need to think harder and longer about it.

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    Default Re: held up and touch in goal at same time

    In the classic clip where Carling is picked up after he had crossed the goal line and bundled over the dead ball line, I think the referee gave a 22 drop out.

    For me there are two factors: timing, and intention. If you judge "held up" fairly quickly (as recommended) and then he goes TiG, 5m scrum. If it is a deliberate bit of defensive work, then 22. Inevitable grey area.
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