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Thread: Penalty faux pas

      
  1. #21

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    Quote Originally Posted by talbazar View Post
    Well, my thought is the ref' giving the scrum is more pedantic than the coach on his remark there.
    If you want to apply the law by the letter, then so be it, but as far as I remember, there's no notion of intent in the law on that matter, so red 10 didn't kick it.

    More importantly, I'd use my first referee coach words: "Manage it!"
    Blow the whistle, tell everyone we're doing that again, properly, and the first round of beer after the game is on red 10...

    Pierre.

    Pierre, I like your style... you leave the most important bit till last!!!
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  2. #22

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    Quote Originally Posted by MattB View Post
    The decision was 100% correct (Law 6.A.4 (a) The referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during a match...) but I think you are asking what will be the correct decision next time. I think we need to remind ourselves and others of this difference if we want the respect for referees to remain (return) in rugby. I hope the coach disagreed after the match.

    But to answer your question, in juniors, I would allow the kick to be taken (again), seniors I would allow the kick again (the player has had punishment enough with the embarrassment). If you award the scrum, does being awarded a penalty equate with moving forward? {20.4 (d)} This will determine who throws the ball into the scrum.
    No offence Matt but people who hide behind 6.A.4 (a) seem to need to either study the laws more or get a better "feel for the game" as IMO that is a cop out excuse when making a game. If you are refereeing and you made a mistake and a captain asked you a question about it and you came back with "I am the sole judge of time and law!" then you lose presence and credibility, whereas if you say "Yep, sorry my bad. I'll look out for it more in future" then you have improved your rapport with that captain and he would be more inclined to listen to what you ask him to do in future.


    My thoughts on the incident:
    Depending on the grade I am reffing would dictate whether it would be a scrum down or a re-kick. U16/18s I would say scrum (especially if it's a state game) and seniors a scrum. U14s and below take the kick again.
    You also have to make up your mind if the desicion you have made is "right for the game", if you are running around with 12/13/14 year old kids and that happens then the right choice is to let them kick it again. If you are running around with a 1st/2nd/3rd grade side in a grand final then the right choice is to blow up for the scrum.

  3. #23

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    That isn't the problem at all. I've never seen anyone take practice swings and doubt that I ever will.

    The question is this: is it equitable that, having given away a penalty offence, a team then gets the feed at the scrum because the opponent has dropped the ball, slipped over in the mud, etc.?
    Dropping the ball or slipping over is a little different to an air kick. On the couple of steps run up if the kicker dropped it then re-kick (same with falling over), when he plants his front foot ready for the kick then it's a scrum if he misses the ball completely.

    What would you do on a really bad slice kick and the ball goes out in line with, or behind the mark (if wind is a factor), would you allow the re-kick as the offending team are actually in a better field position than they were when the penalty was given away?

  4. #24

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    Quote Originally Posted by Drift View Post

    What would you do on a really bad slice kick and the ball goes out in line with, or behind the mark (if wind is a factor), would you allow the re-kick as the offending team are actually in a better field position than they were when the penalty was given away?
    No. Kick was completed so outcome stands.

    Maybe we need a clear definition (like a 'baulk' ('balk'?) in baseball).

  5. #25

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    I figured as much, I was just trying to see if you thought it would be equitable or not :P

  6. #26

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    Quote Originally Posted by Drift View Post
    Depending on the grade I am reffing would dictate whether it would be a scrum down or a re-kick. U16/18s I would say scrum (especially if it's a state game) and seniors a scrum. U14s and below take the kick again.
    You also have to make up your mind if the desicion you have made is "right for the game", if you are running around with 12/13/14 year old kids and that happens then the right choice is to let them kick it again. If you are running around with a 1st/2nd/3rd grade side in a grand final then the right choice is to blow up for the scrum.
    I agree with the general sense of this -- but I would pull you up with the blanket assumption that "U14s and below take the kick again".
    -- I'd say that even at u14s the nature of the game is important. U14B playing a friendly in winter. may well have kids new to rugby and still learning, skill levels not do good, most probably you are club-ref and your son is playing- most important thing is that they have a good time - - Definitely take it again.

    U14 County Cup final, with 2 points in it, skilled and switched on 14 year old playing what they perceive to be the most imptt game of the season- ... you will be an appointed society ref, recognising the importance of the game - - might be different answer.

  7. #27

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I agree with the general sense of this -- but I would pull you up with the blanket assumption that "U14s and below take the kick again".
    -- I'd say that even at u14s the nature of the game is important. U14B playing a friendly in winter. may well have kids new to rugby and still learning, skill levels not do good, most probably you are club-ref and your son is playing- most important thing is that they have a good time - - Definitely take it again.

    U14 County Cup final, with 2 points in it, skilled and switched on 14 year old playing what they perceive to be the most imptt game of the season- ... you will be an appointed society ref, recognising the importance of the game - - might be different answer.
    For sure, all about the game situation and what's on the line.

  8. #28

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    That isn't the problem at all. I've never seen anyone take practice swings and doubt that I ever will.

    The question is this: is it equitable that, having given away a penalty offence, a team then gets the feed at the scrum because the opponent has dropped the ball, slipped over in the mud, etc.?
    Why not? If the SH takes a quick tap then immediately knocks-on, surely you give the scrum?

    It's a grey area, but I'm with DrStu - why should players be excused their incompetence?

    Would you see it differently at a FK, when the opposition can charge as soon as the player starts to kick ie before the airshot?
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  9. #29

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    Of course at a FK the charge may have caused the airshot.

    If the player takes the kick from the wrong place most refs simply get it taken again, as would I - some do award the scrum, but not many and I wouldn't. I think I'd go with a retake for a PK airshot, but can see the other view and would not whinge about it.

    But I would like to ask when thse who would go for te scrum regard the ball as live - is it when the player plays the ball - intentionally touch ... would that be the moment he picks the ball up?

    If so - what about ball resting (by happy chance) on the mark. Player approaches it and swings a boot, missing completely... possibly with entertaining pratfall as his standing foot slides away.
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  10. #30

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    Default Re: Penalty faux pas

    I would go with kick again. The game has not restarted as the kick has not been taken.
    I usualy use the same logic when somebody takes a quick one that I haven't seen. (not for repeat offenders)
    Peep, I haven't seen the penalty taken guys so we'll start from the mark. ( I don't want to punish an attempt at positive play because I didn't see it.)
    Ciaran Trainor

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