What can RL officials learn from RU and vice-versa

[Simon Thomas]

RU officials at the grass roots level might learn to demand a match fee, as their RL counterparts do. Alternatively, RL officials at the grass roots level might learn that reffing for nothing means that you can never be accused of not providing value for money.

This is an regularly debated topic at the RFU Refs Dept for the grassroots community Game. Dixie's suggestion is an interesting one, but if refs "demand" a match fee I suspect in some cases alternative free volunteers will be used instead (it hapens already with Saturday lower teams and some Sunday morning/afternoon Youth matches using Society Refs as non-charged Club Refs. The whole Refs Society system could break down financially. Plus a referee being paid will be open to far more "performance analysis" & pressure, and at what level do you start charging a fee (in top of the current travel/admin charge) - what level of Society Referee is good enough to demand a personal match fee - currently it is level 4 Panel ?

Is the RL match fee that is claimed by the referee on the day separate to a claim for travel expenses too ?

RU Society match fees currently cover the admin and running of each Society (at Society level we get no direct RFU funding) as well as the travel expenses of our members. In some Societies (e.g. London) travel is covered direct on the day in cash and not as part of the match fee charged.

Society charges vary by Society, level of match, type of match but an average figure is £25-30 per match, which in Hampshire adds up to around £50K per season - 90-95% and an increasing % year on year goes on referee travel claims (more claim these days due to petrol costs), leaving less for any subsisdised kit, radio sets, meeting room hire, etc. Societies have to reluctantly increase match fees and this gets pushback by Clubs through the CBs - some Clubs are really struglging finacially currently.

Match fees for Group and Panel matches (L5 upwards) are RFU ones and those refs/assessors claim travel costs from the RFU, and the Panel guys get a match fee and a few of the Elite guys are on RFU salaries (Barnsey, JP, Andrew Small, etc).

[Robert Burns]

I don't understand what the 40/20 kick is, could you explain please Ian (or someone that understands).

Thank you.

[OB..]

I don't understand what the 40/20 kick is, could you explain please Ian (or someone that understands).

Thank you.

Where a player kicks the ball in general play fromany point in the area bounded by his own dead ball line, 40 metre line and the touch lines and the ball finds touch, otherwise than on the full, at a point on the touchline between the opponents’ 20 metre line and goal line the kicker’s team shall be deemed to be the non-offending team.

In other words the kicker's team gets head and feed at the scrum.

In RU terms, a kick from, say, behind your own 10m line that bounces in the field of play and goes into touch beyond the opposition 22m line would give the kicker's team the throw at the lineout.

[Robert Burns]

I see, I'll have to ponder if I like that or not... I'm verging not at the moment.

[RLRef1984]

Oooh quite a bit of activity just to address the points

On the bit about saying RL should abandon the shoulder hit I agree, I ref kids games and watch them go for the "big hit" with the shoulders instead of wrapping the arms round and it bugs the hell out of me. Also a bit of a guilty admission I did sin-bin someone when I first started reffing (had to ref open age in my first season in the North East as I was the only local active ref at the time) for doing it to find out it was legal (I did also give a yellow for crying that year too).

As for penalty tries / 8 point tries I think they are ok-ish at the moment the only tinkering I would make is just to prolong the timescales they can be given. For example if a player is being held back off the ball but still scores after diving on it I'd want to give the penalty try instead of one in the corner. Same for an 8 point try (foul committed in act of scoring) I'd like to see that extended from then to when the conversion is kicked.

Im not sure the 40/20 would work in union just with the defensive lines being different but there has to be something to stop the aerial ping pong that is prevailent in RU at the moment. Id like to encourage the players to run it a bit more as theres a little more excitement when they have the guts to take defenders on.

As for the clubs using clubs instead of society refs if the society refs go down the payment option. In RL therd are rules in various leagues (who also set the payment) that say the home club must contact the society / league secretary for an official otherwise they get fined (if there is no ref available the away team appoints the ref). In amateur games below conference we get a set fee depending on the mileage, when you hit conference level you are paid by the RFL centrally and its all different.

Rugby League Societies get no direct funding we have to apply for grants or charge subs, we charge £25 adult / £12.50 child at ours which works out at approximately one match fee. There is no great deal of admin either so no real outgoings

[Simon Thomas]

Thanks RLRef, it seems Dixie's suggestion of 'RL Refs demanding a match fee' is not the extra charge he might have thought it was. Both codes have match fee payments which cover travel costs, not referee 'time'.

It seems the RL "match" fee is a travel based charge (just like ours !), like us you charge a sub (ours is £20 pa for 160 members) which covers basic admin costs (telephone calls, web site costs, room hires etc), like us you get no central funding, Who pays for referee coach and referee assesor travel costs ? In our Leagues lcubs have to appoint Society Refs too - so same again.

[RLRef1984]

Yeah my little society is about 20 members but in the heartlands we seem to have societies picked by town / city and not county, we have York, Selby and Leeds just in my locale, then from there you have Hull, East Riding to the East and Leeds, Bradford, Cas and Fev, Batley and Dewsbury etc etc.

I think I said this earlier but at kids level (society appointment) there is a set match fee and you dont get any mileage bands so you can travel 100 miles and still get paid the same as someone from around the corner. When you do Youth (16 - 18) which is appointed by the individual leagues then it goes to a mileage system 0 - 50 miles £28 quid, 31 - 75 £32 etc

Theres a lot of similarities but a load of diffences which makes all this quite interesting to me, we have one meeting a month at one of the clubs so we get room hire free, don't have a website yet and as for telephone calls I try to do as much by text / email nowadays as I'd rather the funds go to putting the members on RFL development courses then charge society for little things. It was one of the changes I made when I became Society Development Officer last year

[Dickie E]

I like the RL surrender tackle rule that puts more onus on the tackled player if he deliberately lets himself be tackled.

I'm not convinced about 40/20. A player who deliberately puts the ball out of play shouldn't be rewarded.

[Simon Thomas]

Theres a lot of similarities but a load of diffences which makes all this quite interesting to me, we have one meeting a month at one of the clubs so we get room hire free, don't have a website yet and as for telephone calls I try to do as much by text / email nowadays as I'd rather the funds go to putting the members on RFL development courses then charge society for little things. It was one of the changes I made when I became Society Development Officer last year

Likewise we have a full meeting once a month, but the central club location we use charges £50 hire (with large screen and VGA port connector). The development group meets are at a different club where we get the room at no charge.

We have full email / txt and online / web use to be efficient and low cost but with 100 matches a week telephone calls have to be made too.
Every year we try to renew of expand our support equipment - Team of 3 radios, assessor radios, appt sec laptop, video projector, trainign equipment etc.

[RLRef1984]

Hmm this is giving me food for thought as we just beg steal or borrow things (eg one of our members of staff works at the council so he can get a projector)

Our set up is (as of next meeting) 1930 - 2030 Society Development Meeting and 2030 - 2100 ish Society Business Meeting (how much we have in the bank etc), first hour is going to be hectic though next meeting as we have to go through the rule changes in a bit of detail, go through a clips montage then have a discussion about getting ourselves more in tune with the clubs etc so we can try and get more members.

When I think members are good enough then I put them forward to Yorkshire Development Meetings and hope they attend. I cant force them but its in their interests.

I do need to improve our equipment / kit and hopefully I'll be able to apply for grants soon