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    Angry U13 yellow Card

    Would like your thoughts on the following (Note - I was a coach at the time so I am aware that I have an extremely one-sided viewpoint of the event)

    Black is winning the match comfortably and yellow are struggling for parity. Referee becomes extremely harsh on Black an penalises at every scrum (at which they are dominant) and many rucks/mauls. (Not my issue here - I understand why he did it).

    yellow are 5 metres from oppo goal line. Attack after attack ends in PK being given (in line with how PKs are awarded above).

    After about the 7th PK, ref says "next infringement will be a yellow card".

    yellow tap and go and are tackled short of the line. Black 13 comes in and picks up ball immediately after tackle. Referee declares that ruck had formed (questionable???) and gives PK. 13 gets a yellow card.

    I fully supported the referee but had to deal with a 12-year old in floods of tears. It was the first offence he had committed in the entire game. He is an extremely "clean" player (As a referee, I pride myself on how my players play within the laws).

    Within the laws of the game and in terms of "game management" protocols, referee was exactly right - for U12's, should he have approached the situation differently????

    Just interested in peoples' thoughts?????

    (By the way - ref refused to discuss the incident afterwards and stated (3 times) "I'm the referee so what I say goes!". I didn't challenge him at the time or afterwards but was keen to discuss the matter because I wondered what I would do in the same situation!)

    P
    -----------------------------------------

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    Player or Coach spikeno10's Avatar

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    At under 13s I don't see an issue with this. The fact is the referee left himself nowhere to go. The statement "next offence = yellow" once uttered has to be followed up otherwise way say it. IMHO it is wrong to say that, I'd go for the "have a think lads, you are beginning to limit my options".

    That said 7 PKs in a row in that area of the pitch the players need to understand how to play the referee as much as the opposition and whilst they are 12 I would guess that they have some experience of this.

    The referee is also right in the fact that he does not have to discuss his decisions afterwards and whilst you may not have challenged him it would appear someone did as he stated 3 times he was not prepared to discuss this.

    It depends very much on the situation as to how I might have dealt with this but personal experience in refereeing a very one sided game at U14 level last season is very similar. Black winning be a long way, white made first trip into Black 22 and got up to 5 metres on. Tackle made, ruck formed (which I shouted), Black 7 stuck his hands in, called for him to remove them, ignored me, called again, still nothing (arm out), ball not moving. Whistle and called captain to me. Explained I thought it was cynical and he'd earnt ten minutes. No previous warning as nothing previously but this was a stopping tactic.

    After the match I called the Black coach over to me and explained the above "as I saw it". Not a debate just me explaining what I saw and what I did. Both coaches happy with the explaination.
    ------------
    spike

    Mr Carling had a point......

  3. #3

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    If as you state the PK was as high as it was, the ref prob could have handled it better. I agree that a YC for tech offence at U13's is a little hard for the players to understand/deal with, that said he had warned them.

    As a coach i may well have stepped in sooner and asked the ref if i could speak to my players, i understand this may have been difficult in a sustained attacking position, but you need to step in and "coach" your players.

    As for his not wanting to talk after the game, no time for that approach, I'm always prepared to discuss any call i've made, providing it's going to be a constructive discussion
    Last edited by TheBFG; 07-02-12 at 14:02.
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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Quote Originally Posted by spikeno10 View Post
    At under 13s I don't see an issue with this. The fact is the referee left himself nowhere to go. The statement "next offence = yellow" once uttered has to be followed up otherwise way say it. IMHO it is wrong to say that, I'd go for the "have a think lads, you are beginning to limit my options".

    dont agree with that Spike, these are 12/13 year old kids, using that type of talk to them may well go over their head!

    That said 7 PKs in a row in that area of the pitch the players need to understand how to play the referee as much as the opposition and whilst they are 12 I would guess that they have some experience of this.

    The referee is also right in the fact that he does not have to discuss his decisions afterwards and whilst you may not have challenged him it would appear someone did as he stated 3 times he was not prepared to discuss this.

    you're right he doesn't have to, but he should be prepared for a grown up discussion, may well have been why he was so against it, sounds like he's had issues before

    It depends very much on the situation as to how I might have dealt with this but personal experience in refereeing a very one sided game at U14 level last season is very similar. Black winning be a long way, white made first trip into Black 22 and got up to 5 metres on. Tackle made, ruck formed (which I shouted), Black 7 stuck his hands in, called for him to remove them, ignored me, called again, still nothing (arm out), ball not moving. Whistle and called captain to me. Explained I thought it was cynical and he'd earnt ten minutes. No previous warning as nothing previously but this was a stopping tactic.

    at 14, mmmm maybe, but you'll know the players that "know what they're doing"

    After the match I called the Black coach over to me and explained the above "as I saw it". Not a debate just me explaining what I saw and what I did. Both coaches happy with the explaination.

    see, you did it and that's prob why you don't get the angry parents
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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Should have said.............

    I did try to speak with the ref when he said next offence=yellow. I wanted to speak to my players. I could see where it was going - He would not let me on the field of play.

    I would also have happily removed any player from the field myself. He did not allow me to help him out.

    I should also point out that he pinged our loose-head about 15 times in each scrum. I had believed him to be our best scrummager (by a long way!)

    At the end of the game, (immediately) kid asked if he could play 2nd row from now on. he has no idea what he was doing wrong.

    He was actually an extremely good ref and his interpretations were spot on - however, not really appropriate for 12/13 year olds who are basically still learning the game.

    P
    Last edited by KingsPE; 07-02-12 at 14:02.

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    not conviced that they were spot on, if he pinged the same guy 15 times what was the offence he pinged him for, Oh and you have an openside as your best scrummager , on't let him go, he's likely to be the only one in the world!

    Well there are just some you can't talk to!
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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    One more thought.........

    if he had given a penalty try I would have supported it. It wasn't but he needed to do something about the penalty count - seemed harsh to YC a kid for first offence in the match (but then it is a team-game

    He could have penalised whole team for their PK count???? Not really correct in law but probably what I would do (If team did not keep infringing then try would be scored).

    (Turned out that yellow did not score in the end anyway and black counter-attacked to score under the posts)
    Last edited by KingsPE; 07-02-12 at 15:02.

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Quote.....

    It depends very much on the situation as to how I might have dealt with this but personal experience in refereeing a very one sided game at U14 level last season is very similar. Black winning be a long way, white made first trip into Black 22 and got up to 5 metres on. Tackle made, ruck formed (which I shouted), Black 7 stuck his hands in, called for him to remove them (warning one!), ignored me, called again(warning2), still nothing (arm out), ball not moving. Whistle and called captain to me. Explained I thought it was cynical and he'd earnt ten minutes. No previous warning as nothing previously but this was a stopping tactic.


    2 WARNINGS FOLLOWED BY YC - THAT IS A BIT DIFFERENT TO THIS SITUATION

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    KingsPE, at some point every player gets his first YC. I still have people telling my that their 16 year-old is far too sensitive to deal with the one I gave him for a sly punch on the far side of the ruck ... . That said, let's look at the current situation.

    It sounds as though you feel that the ref was ... if not inventing PK's to give Yellow a sniff of a chance, then at least being far more demanding of Black than of Yellow, resulting in a disproportionate penalty count. If that was indeed the case, then the ref is not acting impartially as he is required to do - and has put Black into a position where a YC for a high count is more likely. In such circumstances, he is the architect of the problem.

    Was this more than a friendly? If so, and if the ref was genuinely giving what saw to the best of his (possibly limited) impartial ability, then he was correct in what he did. If it was a friendly game, he may still have been correct in what he did - but had rather more options available to him in terms of management. I take issue rather with Spike's terminology - while an adult can be expected to read between the lines of "you are limiting my options", I very much doubt that a 12 year-old would understand what was being said. At that age, I think the consequences of actions need to be clearly spelled out, so I would have done similar - though I may have given myself some wiggle room such as "Captain, I'm now thinking yellow card for repeated team offending. Tell your players that the next offence RISKS a YC."

    At least you are in a position where you can tell the lad he took one for the team, it wasn't really for his action but the accumulation, the ref had just lost patience and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time - and anyway, it didn't look to you like even a penalty offence, so forget about it. But consider it from Yellow's perspective - if you were the Yellow coach writing in and complaining that it took seven (7!) red-zone PK's for the ref even to warn about cards, and then when the next attack was illegally halted he didn't even reach for the pocket, so how was his team supposed to score without protection from such blatant cheating ... well, perhaps if you were that coach you'd have stronger grounds for complaint than that a thoroughly nice chap got an undeserved YC and was upset about it.
    Don't feed the pedant!

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Quote Originally Posted by KingsPE View Post
    He could have penalised whole team for their PK count???? Not really correct in law but probably what I would do (If team did not keep infringing then try would be scored).
    How would that work then? 15 yellow cards seems excessive. If it's just a PK, how does that differ from the situation where the ref already had a PK to deal with? If he's not to escalate to YC, where's the sanction for the high count?

    Are you suggesting that he should have given a Penalty Try for the repeated offending, even though no try was probable? You've written in with a feeling that your player was hard done by in the correct application of the laws of the game - might you not have done so with a far stronger sense of injustice if the ref had invented his own laws in order to avoid a perceived minor injustice? That's a very undesirable slippery slope in my view.
    Don't feed the pedant!

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