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Thread: U13 yellow Card

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Quote Originally Posted by KingsPE View Post
    At the end of the game, (immediately) kid asked if he could play 2nd row from now on. he has no idea what he was doing wrong.

    He was actually an extremely good ref and his interpretations were spot on - however, not really appropriate for 12/13 year olds who are basically still learning the game.
    The strong implication here is that the player was doing something wrong, and his coach needs to sort it out. Perhaps the referee could help?!
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
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  2. #12
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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    "The referee is also right in the fact that he does not have to discuss his decisions afterwards and whilst you may not have challenged him it would appear someone did as he stated 3 times he was not prepared to discuss this.

    you're right he doesn't have to, but he should be prepared for a grown up discussion, may well have been why he was so against it, sounds like he's had issues before
    "

    It also depends on how people approach the ref, the OP mentioned "challenged" and maybe if this was the manner of the approach then there is little to gain in that interaction.

    I have had plenty of angry parents (would never claim to be a great referee or indeed to never make mistakes) - in fact have a look at the thread "my turn with the whistle".

    I agree it is great to discuss the game with the ref but it does very much depend on how you make the approach as to what you are going to gain from the discussion.

    Also accept the comment about "limiting options" in hindsight your word in far better.
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    Mr Carling had a point......

  3. #13

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    I think this is a really good question.

    I think there are two issues to discuss -

    1 - in a one-sided game at U13 level what actions can/should a ref take to 'even things up'
    2 - use of YC at U13s

    1 - 'evening things up'

    It's really, really tempting, at U13 when one side is 40-0 up and the other team are despondent, to start to ref slightly harder against the winning team, or give the benefit of the doubt on the forward pass etc from the other, so that they can at least get a try.

    But my view is 'don't' it almost always ends badly (just as it did here). As soon as you divert from anything other than the impartial you quickly find yourself in murky territory, and things can get quickly out of control (as I thibk they did here)

    The actions I think you can take are
    - safety: keep a very careful watch on a one-sided scrum, the weaker scrum can lose morale and distintegrate completely very quickly, over just one or two scrums. think about if you need to go uncontested for safety
    - gloating: I really, really don't like unsporting gloating that this age group can be prone to, it just raises tempers and I will tell them not to (their coach will back you up I find)
    - quite word with the dominant coach (at half time, or when they get to 40-0 or something), to float the possibility that he might like to bring on all those cold subs waiting on the pitch and take off the big tall guy who has scored five tries already. Be prepared for him to say 'no' though


    YC at U13

    I've never seen a 'team warning' followed by YC to first offender at u13 and I don't think that's really appropriate.

    At U13 many teams are still taking it in turns to be captain, you can't assume that your warning to the captain was properly understood by the captain, let alone relayed and understood by players. many U13s will have never seen a YC or RC except on the TV.

    The only YC I have ever seen at u13 have been for foul play / loos of temper / or for multiple offences by the one player (after direct warning to the player).

  4. #14

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Good post, Crossref. I'd agree (and Baftabill will say it stronger than any of us) that real discipline problems are so rare as to be almost unheard of in U.13 or indeed U.14, so to an extent a ref who finds himself painted into a corner should always be looking to his managemnet style. But there ARE incidents when the card is necessary - if only to make a point that is being missed. I once carded one of Bill's club's players at a Newbury tournament - may even have been his team. Two PK's awarded against in quick succession - spoke to the skipper loudly enough to be overheard by all forwards. Time back on, whistle - and a player who'd been having his head guard adjusted within 10m of the tap then tackled the runner 2m from the line. Where are your options then? We were actually just a minute from time - but I still got grief for having the temerity to card the player (who, like KingsPE's [player, was inconsolable).
    Don't feed the pedant!

  5. #15

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Quote Originally Posted by spikeno10 View Post
    At under 13s I don't see an issue with this. The fact is the referee left himself nowhere to go. The statement "next offence = yellow" once uttered has to be followed up otherwise way say it. IMHO it is wrong to say that, I'd go for the "have a think lads, you are beginning to limit my options".
    As TheBFG says, this isn't the best script for U13s. Kids that age don't get "subtle hints" - they have to be told very clearly what's at stake.

    And I'm with Dixie on this too - so someone got a yellow card who perhaps shouldn't have. Shrug. That happens. It won't be the first or last time it happens for this team (particularly if they actually do offend as often as this ref thought!).

    At least they were winning!

  6. #16

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    It's really, really tempting, at U13 when one side is 40-0 up and the other team are despondent, to start to ref slightly harder against the winning team, or give the benefit of the doubt on the forward pass etc from the other, so that they can at least get a try.

    But my view is 'don't' it almost always ends badly (just as it did here).
    If that's what was going on.

    FWIW, in my experience (and I'd certainly say the experience of the ref comes in here), it is possible to "improve" some mismatched games with a bit of one-sided blindness but only to a limited extent.

    I've certainly had matches where the mismatch has been obvious to all but with everyone aware that the poorer side needed to have some match time - so, the dominant side's coaches agreed to put on their weakest side and everyone agreed that I'd only penalise outrageous offences (or foul play) by the poorer side.

    It didn't make a match of it, but it gave the losing side some valuable experience.

    However, as Crossref says, it can easily go very badly wrong and a lot of that is in the hands of the dominant side - if they decide to muck about, then all that happens is tempers rise and it's time to call it a day.

    Was the ref trying to do some evening up here? Well, perhaps - but I can't honestly say that a team warning and a yellow would be any part of any "evening up" I'd ever see as appropriate!

    YC at U13

    I've never seen a 'team warning' followed by YC to first offender at u13 and I don't think that's really appropriate.

    At U13 many teams are still taking it in turns to be captain, you can't assume that your warning to the captain was properly understood by the captain, let alone relayed and understood by players. many U13s will have never seen a YC or RC except on the TV.

    The only YC I have ever seen at u13 have been for foul play / loos of temper / or for multiple offences by the one player (after direct warning to the player).
    I certainly agree with that - this really shouldn't have been a YC at all. (However, once the ref had made his decision to use the YC at the next offence, well, hopefully it's a learning experience!)

  7. #17

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    Good post, Crossref. I'd agree (and Baftabill will say it stronger than any of us) that real discipline problems are so rare as to be almost unheard of in U.13 or indeed U.14,
    Dixie,

    I'm with you with U13, but I'm afraid there can be a lot of problems at U14.

    U13 (in England) is a transition year - the kids are learning about the full size pitch and fending off, etc. and many of the coaches are beginning to learn they're out of their depth. Many of the dads who've been holding the whistle up till now are also working out they're out of their depth too come to that.

    By U14, a lot of that is sorted out. There are still a lot of kids with very poor skills and those who are not fully physically developed, but often now the dads who've been helping out with minis have stepped back and some of the other dads who played in the 2nds 20 years ago step forward.

    U14s may well be being coached to cheat, to give someone a slap when the ref's back is turned and certainly to sledge.

    So you can't be quite so keen to give U14s the benefit of the doubt..

  8. #18

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    I think you got the short end of the stick whichever way you cut it.

    In an adult game, his management would be scored so low as to be off the paper. 15 penalties at scrums? 7 near the goalline? Even assuming that they were technically correct, that's unsupportable.

    The YC for cumulative penalties is again, possibly technically correct. I would debate 7 as being the right number. Why did the LH not get a card?

    Is that appropriate at U13 level? I have mixed feelings on that. When I was playing at that level I knew what I was doing and enjoyed the devilment of skiting the law to make the opposite no9's life hell. I suspect that if I'd been carded, I'd have accepted that as the price for what I was doing. I certainly never had any issue being penalized.
    Kids today may be very different and the ethos of the game different. I don't know, so I don't feel qualified to answer competently. From what I've picked up from others who deal with kids at that age, it seems a bit out of step with prevailing expectations.
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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulDG View Post
    Dixie,

    I'm with you with U13, but I'm afraid there can be a lot of problems at U14.

    U13 (in England) is a transition year - the kids are learning about the full size pitch and fending off, etc. and many of the coaches are beginning to learn they're out of their depth. Many of the dads who've been holding the whistle up till now are also working out they're out of their depth too come to that.

    By U14, a lot of that is sorted out. There are still a lot of kids with very poor skills and those who are not fully physically developed, but often now the dads who've been helping out with minis have stepped back and some of the other dads who played in the 2nds 20 years ago step forward.

    U14s may well be being coached to cheat, to give someone a slap when the ref's back is turned and certainly to sledge.

    So you can't be quite so keen to give U14s the benefit of the doubt..
    Think thats rite , as u14s is the same as u19 but for one or two very small deferences and player are tought to cheat where possible and often do
    Player at this age need to learn as soon they will be playing youth rugby and will not get away with so much

  10. #20

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    Default Re: U13 yellow Card

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    Is that appropriate at U13 level? I have mixed feelings on that. When I was playing at that level I knew what I was doing and enjoyed the devilment of skiting the law to make the opposite no9's life hell. I suspect that if I'd been carded, I'd have accepted that as the price for what I was doing. I certainly never had any issue being penalized..
    that's the the sort of player (and the sort of behaviour) that does merit a YC at U13 You can be qute sure that you have A,T, P and YC him, with him understanding all the way through. been there done that, and he didn't burst into tears

    that's very different from a 'team warning' via the captain, which I just don't think works at U13 and is almost guaranteed to lead to you two minutes later showing a YC to a tearful 12 year old who had no idea that he was risking one.
    Last edited by crossref; 07-02-12 at 17:02.

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