Foul play in-goal but after the ball is made dead

[Dixie]

Paul DG has spotted a bit of an issue, to be discussed here rather than derail the thread in which he spotted it.

Blue kicks long from its own 22. A chase ensues, and the diving Blue winger just fails to reach the ball before it goes dead in Red's in-goal. The following Red winger deliberately tramples on the Blue winger in his own in-goal area, but after the ball has gone dead.

The referee cards the Red winger and then turns his thoughts to where to award the PK . Any thoughts?

Options would seem to be: 5m out in line with where the offence took place (Law 21.2b); or ask the oppo whether they would have restarted with a 22 or a scrum at the place of the kick 70m back upfield, and award the PK there. (Law 10.4n)

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

[Toby Warren]

That is a good (bad) one.

My 'manange' it head would say PK on the 22 in line with the offence. No law justification but feels about right.

[Bunniksider]

That is a good (bad) one.

My 'manange' it head would say PK on the 22 in line with the offence. No law justification but feels about right.

My instinct would be penalty on the 5m. Using exactly the same law justification as Toby.

[crossref]

it's a PK to blue -- so I wouldn't be asking red for any input into the matter.

I think I'd give the PK 5m out from red tryline, ie where the offence took place (but adjusted because it was in goal)

My thinking:
- after blue kick it I am imaging a footrace with a blue and red player running down the field chasing the ball
- if either of those players had deliberatly tripped up the other one I would give a PK at the place of the trip
so
-if red trip blue just before the try-line, in the field of play = PK at place of offence
-if red trip (or trample on) blue 1m into the in-goal = doesn't seem right moving the offence 5m moves the mark 70m away.

[All The Time Ref]

Law (n) Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A player, must not, while the ball is out of play,
commit any misconduct, or obstruct or in any way interfere with an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick
The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is
awarded at the place where play would restart. If that place is on the touchline or within 15
metres of it, the mark for the penalty kick is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.

and:

22.17 MISCONDUCT OR UNFAIR PLAY IN IN-GOAL
(a) Obstruction by the attacking team. When a player charges or intentionally obstructs an
opponent in the in-goal who has just kicked the ball, the opponent’s team may choose to
take the penalty kick either in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line opposite the
place of infringement, or where the ball landed.
If they make the second choice and the ball lands in or near touch, the mark for the penalty
kick is 15 metres from the touchline, opposite where the ball went into touch or where it
landed.
A try is disallowed and a penalty kick awarded if a try would probably not have been scored
but for foul play by the attacking team.
(b) Foul play by the defending team. The referee awards a penalty try if a try would probably
have been scored but for foul play by the defending team.
The referee awards a penalty try if a try would probably have been scored in a better
position but for foul play by the defending team.
A penalty try is awarded between the goal posts. The defending team may charge the
conversion kick after a penalty try.
A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and
temporarily suspended or sent off.
(c) Any other foul play. When a player commits any other foul play in the in-goal while the ball
is out of play, the penalty kick is awarded at the place where the game would otherwise
have re-started.
Sanction: Penalty kick

[crossref]

Law (n) Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A player, must not, while the ball is out of play,
commit any misconduct, or obstruct or in any way interfere with an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick
The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is
awarded at the place where play would restart. If that place is on the touchline or within 15
metres of it, the mark for the penalty kick is on the 15-metre line, in line with that place.

yes, yes, but where would you give the kick then?

[Taff]

yes, yes, but where would you give the kick then?

Given that Red have an option of where to restart - ie 22DO or scrum back where the ball was kicked, personally I'd give them the option of where they want the PK. Play can restart at 2 different places; why do we have to decide which one they opt for? Obviously they're going to opt to have the PK where the ball was kicked as it's much further downfield.

Am I missing something?

[PaulDG]

Either I'm being thick, or I'm missing something.

Can you think of any other situation where the offending side gets to decide that the non-offending side's penalty should be in the least advantageous of two possible positions?

And can you imagine the difficulty you'd have "selling" this option on the park on a Saturday (or on a Sunday morning in front of the parents of the kid who's just been jumped on in-goal)?

Ref: "Captains, over here please. Red captain.. Your winger is going to take a rest. Now.. can you tell the Blue captain if you'd like him to take his penalty from the 22 or from back in his own 22 where his winger kicked from".

Blue Captain: "Just a f*ck*ng second ref!! His man just twatted one of my players and you're letting him choose where we kick from? Are you really a society ref or did you find that shirt in the changing room?"

[crossref]

Given that Red have an option of where to restart - ie 22DO or scrum back where the ball was kicked, personally I'd give them the option of where they want the PK. Play can restart at 2 different places; why do we have to decide which one they opt for? Obviously they're going to opt to have the PK where the ball was kicked as it's much further downfield.

Am I missing something?

yes what you are missing is that it is a PK to BLUE !