Foul play in-goal but after the ball is made dead

[Pinky]

Restart would be in one of two places, either on the 22 or where kicked by blue. I see no point in allowing red to make the choice if they had offended, so I would let blue choose where they want the PK to be take from. I presume they would choose the middle of the 22 if the original kick was, say, at Reds 10m line.

[gavb]

On 5m line. This just feels right.

[Ian_Cook]

Paul DG has spotted a bit of an issue, to be discussed here rather than derail the thread in which he spotted it.

Blue kicks long from its own 22. A chase ensues, and the diving Blue winger just fails to reach the ball before it goes dead in Red's in-goal. The following Red winger deliberately tramples on the Blue winger in his own in-goal area, but after the ball has gone dead.

The referee cards the Red winger and then turns his thoughts to where to award the PK . Any thoughts?

Options would seem to be: 5m out in line with where the offence took place (Law 21.2b); or ask the oppo whether they would have restarted with a 22 or a scrum at the place of the kick 70m back upfield, and award the PK there. (Law 10.4n)

I don't see why this is an issue. Its a kick through in-goal that goes dead without being touched, so Law 22.8 applies to determine where the game will restart.

LAW 22.8 BALL KICKED DEAD THROUGH IN-GOAL
If a team kicks the ball through their opponents’ in-goal into touch-in-goal or on or over the dead ball line, except by an unsuccessful kick at goal or attempted dropped goal, the defending team has two choices:

To have a drop-out,
or
To have a scrum at the place where the ball was kicked and they throw in.

So, ask the non offending captain if he is choosing the 22DO or the scrum where the ball was kicked from. Now you know where the game would otherwise have restarted...

LAW 22.17 MISCONDUCT OR UNFAIR PLAY IN IN-GOAL
(c) Any other foul play. When a player commits any other foul play in the in-goal while the ball is out of play, the penalty kick is awarded at the place where the game would otherwise have re-started.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Whichever he chooses, that is the mark for the PK.

[Toby Warren]

But Ian the non offending captain is going to choose the worse position so in your solution an act of foul play in goal could result in the sinners choosing to have the PK 80m away from the offence.

You can't have a team committing foul play selecting the location of the PK that's nuts.

[Phil E]

I think what Ian is suggesting is that you don't tell the defence about the penalty until after they have made their choice.

[Taff]

... You can't have a team committing foul play selecting the location of the PK that's nuts.

I think what Ian is suggesting is that you don't tell the defence about the penalty until after they have made their choice.

It is nuts, but he's not suggesting that - see below.

... So, ask the non offending captain if he is choosing the 22DO or the scrum where the ball was kicked from.

As the offending team, Red can't have any say in where the mark is surely. As you say, that would be just "nuts".

[MrQeu]

I may seem stubborn, but in a 22DO it is not mandatory to take it at the 22m line. In fact, no team kicks it in that place, but some meters back so no charge/interference is made by the other team and a clean kick can be achieved.

A drop-out is a drop kick taken by the defending team. The drop-out may be taken anywhere on or behind the 22-metre line.

[Taff]

I may seem stubborn, but in a 22DO it is not mandatory to take it at the 22m line. In fact, no team kicks it in that place, but some meters back so no charge/interference is made by the other team and a clean kick can be achieved.

I can see what you're getting at (ie the 22DO can be taken anywhere in the 22) but the book gives other sanctions for DO "infringements" on the 22 eg balls up a 22DO and kick it direct to touch, and the scrum option is at the middle of the 22m line.

[Toby Warren]

I think what Ian is suggesting is that you don't tell the defence about the penalty until after they have made their choice.

That's just going to get messy, I'm captain of the non offending side and I see the other side getting 'options' that's going to cause issues.

You then give PK there that causes more issues - so now you have 2 pissed off captains.

[Toby Warren]

Ok re reading Ian's post I see what he's saying - basically non offender gets options similar to a scrum or PK option for offsides.

That makes sense now!

Sorry for my confusion