Foul play in-goal but after the ball is made dead

[BikingBud]

I'm confused about the colours but trying to simplify for my own understanding:

Blue kicks long ball, from own 22, that goes dead. Normal decision for Red Captain, as his team did not make the ball dead, is 22DO or scrum at point of kick ie back in Blue 22.

You offer him this he selects, scrum back. This is the restart point.

However, following foul play by RED during the chase and attempt to ground the ball in goal, a penalty offence is committed by RED.

So the restart is penalty against RED but it must go back to where the scrum would have been.

Seems harsh but if the kicker can kick the ball dead from his own 22 then he should be able to do it again and get good lineout position and the throw.

Player in the bin good attacking lineout maybe its not too bad after all.

[BikingBud]

Double post sorry

[didds]

BB... you can be the ref that tries to sell the offended team tyat a PK in their own 22m for an offence against one of their team mates 70m away is somehow correct.

didds

[Treadmore]

But you'd have no problem giving it 50m back from the infringment if he had scored a try first

[didds]

Because from the side that scored the try's perspective it is a "bonus" and nothing has been "lost". (aside from well being of the attacked player etc) ?

didds

[Dickie E]

Good question and I view it like this:

the default & regular restart for the attacking team making the ball dead in goal is a 22 DO. However, in order to discourage speculative long kicks a special case exists where a kick goes dead in goal.

So solely & specifically where the restart is for a long kick does the ref offer an option.

For ALL other restarts (including foul play while ball is dead) the restart is on 22.

IMHO of course.

[Ian_Cook]

Last night, I asked a friend of mine who is a referee at Provincial Level.

Rather than ask him what the correct decision is, I asked him what HE would do given that situation and had him make a immediate decision, just as he would have to in a game.

He said he would award a PK to the attacking team on the 5m line opposite the place of infringement.

Then I asked him to justify it.

His take is that 22.8 is "off the board", because the foul play takes precedence. He would treat it simply at as foul play in-goal (Law 22.16) and he said the first sentence of that Law is the important one.....

22.16 INFRINGEMENTS IN IN-GOAL
All infringements in the in-goal are treated as if they had taken place in the field of play. A knock-on or a throw forward in the in-goal results in a 5-metre scrum, opposite the place of infringement.
Sanction: For an infringement, the mark for a penalty kick or free kick cannot be in the in goal. When a penalty kick or free kick is awarded for an infringement in the In-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of infringement.

[Dickie E]

I wonder if he would apply the same logic if foul play occurred after a try.

I'll ask the SA refs.

[The Fat]

Last night, I asked a friend of mine who is a referee at Provincial Level.

Rather than ask him what the correct decision is, I asked him what HE would do given that situation and had him make a immediate decision, just as he would have to in a game.

He said he would award a PK to the attacking team on the 5m line opposite the place of infringement.

Then I asked him to justify it.

His take is that 22.8 is "off the board", because the foul play takes precedence. He would treat it simply at as foul play in-goal (Law 22.16) and he said the first sentence of that Law is the important one.....

22.16 INFRINGEMENTS IN IN-GOAL
All infringements in the in-goal are treated as if they had taken place in the field of play. A knock-on or a throw forward in the in-goal results in a 5-metre scrum, opposite the place of infringement.
Sanction: For an infringement, the mark for a penalty kick or free kick cannot be in the in goal. When a penalty kick or free kick is awarded for an infringement in the In-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of infringement.

That was my initial way of thinking. We discussed in another thread that the PK should be in the most favourable location for the non-offending team (the thread about the winger way over the other side of the ground being in front of his team mate who kicks ahead).

I believe it is only fair to award the PK on the 5m line.

[Dickie E]

I wonder if he would apply the same logic if foul play occurred after a try.

I'll ask the SA refs.

Got an answer:

Question: Hi all & congratulations on a great forum - it has become the international clearing house for curly questions.

Here's one:

Law 10.4 (n) tells us that the penalty kick for foul play while the ball is out of play is awarded at the place where play would restart.

Law 22.8 tells us that the defending team has a scrum/drop out option in the case where the attacking team kicks the ball dead through in-goal.

After the ball is kicked dead through in-goal by the attacking team and the ball is out of play, foul play is committed.

Where is the penalty kick restart if the foul play is committed (a) by the attacking team and (b) by the defending team?

Gaan die Melbourne Rebelle!

Jaco Peyper: Hi Rob

Thanks for the compliment - you guys make it a great forum with questions like yours... It made me think there for a second as this does not happen regularly.

As you quote the law, the captain has an option where he would like to restart play (1) anywhere at 22m or (2) place where kick was made from , therefore my submission is that regardless whether it is defending or attacking captain he has the choice where he wants to restart the game with the penalty at 1 or 2 above.

Regards, Jaco

http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2863704.htm