Shake up among the Elite?

[Robert Burns]

My last point is that how can anyone consider Tonga v Samoa to not be a tier one game. They are both in the top 10 of the world.

Surely a higher game than Fiji v Scotland 12 v16th.

More I look at this the more I don't believe Barnes has been dropped at all.

[Skids]

I guess only the future will tell and all this speculation is just that.

[Robert Burns]

I've put the games into ranked order, basically their world rankings added together, it gives a list which I have then coloured green for T1 games, and blue for the T2 games, as you can see, there is starting to become less of a dividing line apart from when the top 8 play each other.

June ranking.jpg

[All The Time Ref]

Really? You see that as a demotion?

Did you miss the quotation marks?

[Ian_Cook]

My last point is that how can anyone consider Tonga v Samoa to not be a tier one game. They are both in the top 10 of the world.

Surely a higher game than Fiji v Scotland 12 v16th.

Its not a Tier 1 match because nether of them are Tier 1 teams. These are Argentina, Australia, England, France, Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, Scotland, South Africa and Wales.

The Pacific Nations Cup is a development tournament, rather like the Six Nations "B". If you are expecting to see the same two teams that ran onto the pitch at Eden Park in the 2011 RWC, you are going to be very, very disappointed. The only elite players who are likely to be released for this match are those playing Super Rugby in New Zealand and Australia. There are also likely to be players from ITM Cup teams and from the Sydney and Brisbane Club competitions who don't even have Super Rugby contracts.

NONE of the Island Nations European stars will be involved, even though the European Domestic season will be over by then. This means for Samoa.....

SAMOA'S WORLD CUP SQUAD 2011
Ole Avei Hooker France Bordeaux
Ti’i Paulo Hooker - France Clermont
Mahonri Schwalger (c) Hooker - New Zealand Highlanders
Census Johnston Prop - France Toulouse
Logovi'i Mulipola Prop - New Zealand Hawke's Bay
Anthony Perenise Prop - England Bath
Sakaria Taulafo Prop - England London Wasps
Daniel Leo Lock - France Bordeaux
Filipo Levi Lock - New Zealand Tasman
Joe Tekori Lock - France Castres
Kane Thompson Lock - New Zealand Hawke's Bay
Maurie Fa'asavalu Flanker - England Harlequins
Manaia Salavea Flanker - France Narbonne
Ofisa Treviranus Flanker - Samoa Malie
George Stowers Number 8 - Wales Ospreys
Taiasina Tuifu'a Number 8 - England Newcastle Falcons
Kahn Fotuali'i Scrum-half - Wales Ospreys
Junior Poluleuligaga Scrum-half - England Exeter Chiefs
Jeremy Su'a Scrum-half - Australia West Harbour
Tasesa Lavea Fly-half - England Sale Sharks
Tusi Pisi Fly-half - New Zealand Wellington Hurricanes
Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu - England Gloucester[/strike]
Johnny Leota Centre - England Sale Sharks
Seilala Mapusua Centre - Japan Kubota Spears
George Pisi Centre - England Northampton Saints
David Lemi Wing - Scotland Glasgow
Sailosi Tagicakibau Wing - England London Irish
Alesana Tuilagi Wing - England Leicester Tigers
James So'oialo Fullback - New Zealand Northern United
Paul Williams Fullback - France Stade Français

...and for Tonga.....

TONGA'S WORLD CUP SQUAD 2011
Aleki Lutui Hooker - England Worcester Warriors
Ilaisa Ma'asi Hooker - New Zealand Counties Manukau
Ephraim Taukafa Hooker - France Mont-de-Marsan
Halani Aulika Prop - England London Irish
Taufa'ao Filise Prop - Wales Cardiff Blues
Kisi Pulu Prop - France Perpignan
Sona Taumalolo Prop - New Zealand Chiefs
Soane Tonga'uiha Prop - England Northampton Saints
Paino Hehea Lock - Italy Rugby Calvisano
Tukulua Lokotui Lock - Japan Kintetsu Liners
Sione Timani Lock - Wales Scarlets
Joe Tuineau Lock - New Zealand Southland
Finau Maka (c) Flanker - France Pamiers[/strike]
Samiu Vahafolau Flanker - France Béziers
Sione Vaiomo'unga Flanker - Tonga Toloa Old Boys
Sione Kalamafoni Number 8 - England Nottingham
Viliami Ma'afu Number 8 - Japan Mitsubishi
Samisoni Fisilau Scrum-half - New Zealand Counties Manukau
Taniela Moa Scrum-half - France Pau
Tomasi Palu Scrum-half - New Zealand Norths
Kurt Morath Fly-half - Australia Souths
Alipate Fatafehi Centre - France Lyon
Suka Hufanga Centre - England Newcastle Falcons
Andrew Ma'ilei Centre - France Bordeaux
Siale Piutau Centre - New Zealand Highlanders
William Helu Wing - England Bristol Rugby
Alaska Taufa Wing - Japan Akita
Fetu'u Vainikolo Wing - Ireland Connacht
Viliame Iongi Fullback - Wales Scarlets
Vunga Lilo (vc) Fullback - France Bordeaux

The players struck out will not be available.
The players marked in BLUE play only for domestic non-elite teams in NZ, Australia, the Islands and Japan.
The players marked in RED (all two of them in each team) are the only elite players available.

It gets even worse than that because many of the players would could likely be called in also play in Europe. Fiji faces similar problems, with Napolioni Nalaga (Western Force) the only elite player available.

This match (and others in the iRB Pacific Nations Championship) will effectively have the status of Samoa "C" v Tonga "C"; two teams of amateur grass roots players with a couple of professional players thrown in. Any good (mid table or above) ITM Cup team or Shute Shield team would be able deal with either of them easily.

For NH readers think Portugal "A" v Spain "A" for this match

[OB..]

Is this not a bit of a rush to judgement? So far the elite list has not been published and we do not know why certain referees were given certain matches. Why the need to try and decide the situation by reading the entrails of the allocations?

A certain amount of speculation can be interesting, but let's not take it too seriously.

I'll wait and see.

[Robert Burns]

I agree OB..

Ian, so how high in the rankings do they need to get to have T1 status?

If canada play well this June and win all their games, and Scotland don't, they could also move above Scotland.

[Ian_Cook]

I agree OB..

Ian, so how high in the rankings do they need to get to have T1 status?

If canada play well this June and win all their games, and Scotland don't, they could also move above Scotland.

Tiers are not based on World Rankings. If they were, Italy would not be in Tier 1.

[Robert Burns]

The old boys club, it's a part of the game that stinks a bit!

IMHO.

[Ian_Cook]

The old boys club, it's a part of the game that stinks a bit!

IMHO.

Not really Robert... you could hardly call Argentina or Italy a part of the "old boys club", yet they are Tier 1.

AIUI there are a lot of factors that go into deciding whether or not a team gets into tier 1. This includes things such as overall player numbers, infrastructure, domestic professional players/leagues, funding for grass roots, the presence of academies and youth development.

Of course, there are some anomalies.

Based on player numbers and domestic professional players, you would think Japan should be Tier 1. They have over 120,000 players (more than Wales & Scotland combined) and have a fully professional 14-team domestic competition (The Top League). In 2019, they will become the first ever Tier 2 country to host a Rugby World Cup.

However, if you use those criteria, Argentina should not be a Tier 1 country, no domestic pro competition, only about 45,000 players (less than Canada).