Scrum - when is it out?

[Dickie E]

So, you would be happy to allow the Blue SH to step into the space between the white 6 and 8 and pick up the ball at "A"? Indeed, if you consider the ball at "A" to be out, then the Blue SH could go around behind White 6's feet and pick up the ball, because the scrum would be over and so there would be no offside line for the SH.

The blue SH could even go and shake the white #10 by the hand if he wanted to. Yes, ball is out.

How about the Blue SH reaching under White 6's body and plucking the ball from Position "B"?

No, ball is not out.

How about if the scrum suddenly wheels clockwise, or the No. 8 suddenly sticks his left foot out, and the ball ends up in front of his left foot. Are you now going to ping him under 20.9 (d) for returning the ball to the scrum?

Yes unless a whip wheel so PK regardless

If you consider he ball at "A" to be out, then I cannot see how a ball at "B" would not also be out. They're both in the open space between the two players you mention. At what point between "B" and "A" would the ball go from "in" to "out"... an inch further back? Two inches? Six inches? A Foot? Two feet?

Ball B is between feet of lock so clearly not out.

[Ian_Cook]

Ball B is between feet of lock so clearly not out.

So ball between feet of locks is not out, and ball between feet of loose forwards is out?

Law reference for that?

[Dickie E]

So ball between feet of locks is not out, and ball between feet of loose forwards is out?

Ball is between the left foot and the right foot of one of the locks. So ball is not out. Law 20.10(a)

[crossref]

I am glad we've got all this clear then.

and I still think we need to take the scrum half into account.

In my mind
- when the ball appears at A or B it's not out
- if the SH picks it up and passes it in the normal way, it's out when it crosses the red line
- BUT if the scrum half puts his hands on the ball in A or B, and then stops for a while, stationary, looking around him left and right to see what he wants to to do, weighing options, with his hands firmly around the ball - then he's fair game, so the ball effectively is out now, even though it hasn't moved from A or B.

[Davet]

I'd draw the red line tighter to the feet between players, A would be out - call, "play on!"

[OB..]

I must remember to book a helicopter for my next game.

Frankly there are so many positional variations possible that I do not think you can lay down specific metrics. The difference between Ian's red lines and Davet's is a case in point. I agree with the approach, but the implementation is always going to depend on the referee's judgement and management.

Perhaps the proposed ELV that makes the midline of the scrum the offside line for the non-winning scrum half is a good idea after all!

[Phil E]

Perhaps the proposed ELV that makes the midline of the scrum the offside line for the non-winning scrum half is a good idea after all!

I would prefer to see a SH specific offside line that begins at the door of the changing room!!

[Ian_Cook]

I am glad we've got all this clear then.

and I still think we need to take the scrum half into account.

In my mind
- when the ball appears at A or B it's not out
- if the SH picks it up and passes it in the normal way, it's out when it crosses the red line
- BUT if the scrum half puts his hands on the ball in A or B, and then stops for a while, stationary, looking around him left and right to see what he wants to to do, weighing options, with his hands firmly around the ball - then he's fair game, so the ball effectively is out now, even though it hasn't moved from A or B.

This would certainly be consistent with the way we manage "out" and "not-out" at Ruck time.

[RobLev]

I would prefer to see a SH specific offside line that begins at the door of the changing room!!

Throughout the game, or at scrums only?

[Boulder_Mark]

This is exactly why I took up Rugby Refereeing. For a far bigger challenge than that round ball game that should not be mentioned!! LOL