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Thread: Counter Rucker Options?

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdeagro View Post
    In reply to what Dixie said: If the red SH has both hands on the ball and is starting to make his pass, the ball is out and the ruck is over at this point.

    This is not how the ruck is refereed here or anywhere else near here.

    The ruck is over when the ball is out, and the ball is out when its..... out!

    NOT when the SH has his hands on it
    NOT when a bird can poop on it
    NOT when the SH has lifted the ball off the ground
    NOT when the referee has said "use it" (as I head some idiot commentator say last week)

    The ball is out when it is out of the ruck, i.e. completely clear of bodies

    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 20-11-12 at 03:11.
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  2. #12

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    OK. Ball is out and SH is in the process of doing something with it. The ruck has ended, so an opponent (who was in the just-ended ruck) may reach out and grasp the SH. Shame on the SH's forwards for allowing the opponent to be in that position.

    The opponent may not slap the ball forward out of the SH's hands nor may he kick the ball out of the SH's hands.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  3. #13

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    Ok, so I seem to be getting a lot of criticism for describing when the ball is out of a ruck. I was not saying this is the definition of when the ruck is over, rather I was trying to use an objective reference (that sounds universally acceptable, since a lot of officials use different specifics to visualize the scenario) to visualize a subjective wording of the law. I.e: I think the majority of officials would agree that if the SH has both his hands on the ball, which is off the ground and in the process of being passed, the ball is out of the ruck at this point.

    Regardless, that is semantics; and my question is in regard to when the ball is declared out of the ruck and therefor the ruck is over. Specifically the scenario in which the ball is out of the ruck, the ruck is over; and the red SH is holding the ball in his hands (standing directly behind the previous ruck) and in the process of making a move with the ball whether it be passing it out, running with it, etc. Can the opposing blue (previously rucking) player, who is still bound on by a red (previously rucking) player, reach over and interfere with the red SH and his next decision with the ball by grasping the red SH?
    Last edited by jdeagro; 20-11-12 at 04:11.

  4. #14

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdeagro View Post
    Ok, so I seem to be getting a lot of criticism for describing when the ball is out of a ruck. I was not saying this is the definition of when the ruck is over, rather I was trying to use an objective reference (that sounds universally acceptable, since a lot of officials use different specifics to visualize the scenario) to visualize a subjective wording of the law. I.e: I think the majority of officials would agree that if the SH has both his hands on the ball, which is off the ground and in the process of being passed, the ball is out of the ruck at this point.

    Regardless, that is semantics; and my question is in regard to when the ball is declared out of the ruck and therefor the ruck is over. Specifically the scenario in which the ball is out of the ruck, the ruck is over; and the red SH is holding the ball in his hands (standing directly behind the previous ruck) and in the process of making a move with the ball whether it be passing it out, running with it, etc. Can the opposing blue (previously rucking) player, who is still bound on by a red (previously rucking) player, reach over and interfere with the red SH and his next decision with the ball by grasping the red SH?
    Yes - see post #12
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Yes - see post #12
    True. Thank you for your response.

  6. #16

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    OK. Ball is out and SH is in the process of doing something with it. The ruck has ended, so an opponent (who was in the just-ended ruck) may reach out and grasp the SH. Shame on the SH's forwards for allowing the opponent to be in that position.

    Yes but he had better be....

    1. onside, or was onside at the time the ruck ended, and

    2. on his feet.
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  7. #17

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    [QUOTE=Dixie;225534]Agree with Ian on all except this one, which is more nuanced than Ian's straight NO would imply.

    If we imagine that the scrum half slips and falls after he's removed the ball from the ruck, then regains his feet and looks to pass, Ian's answer would suggest that an ex-rucker is impotent to engage the #9 at any point. Personally, I can't see any justification for this.

    ...

    And if that is the position with a slow-passing, double-stepping scrummie, how does it play out with a #9 of ST's class, who operated in the thick of it with a fast, whippy service executed in the midst of traffic? Well, my brief says that a #9 is protected until the ruck is over; thereafter, he's fair game. When is the ruck over?

    16.6 SUCCESSFUL END TO A RUCK
    A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.


    In most situations, the ruck ends when the ball moves behind its back foot. For me, that applies whether or not the ball is being carried. So the SH is protected as long as the ball is above any part of a rucking player; as soon as it moves behind the rearmost foot of the rearmost player, we are in open play and anyone who was legal immediately prior to that may attempt to engage the halfback.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by jdeagro View Post
    I think Dixie's point is actually more how I imagined the scenario in my head possibly (my fault for not adequately describing it.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    This is not how the ruck is refereed here or anywhere else near here.

    The ruck is over when the ball is out, and the ball is out when its..... out!
    Good grief! When you guys get a wrong idea in your heads, it's a real challenge to shake it off. What does jdeagro have to do to persuade you that the situation he's interested in occurs AFTER the ball is out! under your definition?
    Last edited by Dixie; 20-11-12 at 08:11.
    Don't feed the pedant!

  8. #18

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    Yes but he had better be....

    1. onside, or was onside at the time the ruck ended,
    How could he not be onside? He was in the ruck
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  9. #19

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    I.e: I think the majority of officials would agree that if the SH has both his hands on the ball, which is off the ground and in the process of being passed, the ball is out of the ruck at this point.
    Then you would be wrong. As would the few refs who consider that to be the case.


    If the ball is out then any player who was onside as the ruck ended may challenge for the ball.

    A player may have been stood offside at the side of the ruck, or even in the middle of the ruck but not bound, such a player may not have been penalised immediately if they did not materially affect play - if such a player then challenges for the ball he will be pinged.
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  10. #20

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    Default Re: Counter Rucker Options?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    How could he not be onside? He was in the ruck
    FFS, sometimes, its like extracting teeth!! Do I really have to explain this to you?

    Yes but he had better be....

    1. onside, or was onside at the time the ruck ended if he was not a participant in the ruck, and

    2. on his feet whether or not he was a participant in the ruck
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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