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Thread: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    jdeagro - in the USA, as per the GMG, the receiver can join the lineout before the throw.

    It doesn't limit this to the throwers team. Therefore I think that the non-throwing receiver can join even if the thrower's receiver doesn't.

    That, of course makes a hash of the lineout count. There is a solution that, if I remember correctly, is in practice down under. That is to allow the receiver to join but to require a lineout player to drop off at the same time. Allows for creative LO play and keeps the numbers the same.
    The receiver may swap places with a player in the lineout before the ball is thrown in.

    If the non-throwing receiver simply joins other than in response to his opponent, he is breaking the numbers law. You cannot infer from the failure to specify this that he is allowed to break a specific law.
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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    The receiver may swap places with a player in the lineout before the ball is thrown in.

    If the non-throwing receiver simply joins other than in response to his opponent, he is breaking the numbers law. You cannot infer from the failure to specify this that he is allowed to break a specific law.
    This.
    I would give a numbers FK if it happened
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  3. #13

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    but presumably if red (throwing)put in 7, and blue put in 6 and then their receiver joins the line, blue haven't exceeded numbers so there is no FK?

    which is what I belive BFG was hinting at.

    didds

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    This is exactly how I deal with it. As line out forms get numbers from team throwing in and then say X +1 if they have a receiver. That allows the defending team to match numbers in the physical line out and then have a receiver.

    In answer to the question posed originally. No, the defending team can't have 4 versus 3 + 1 but manage it before FK them (also bear in mind that the no huddle directive makes this much easier to do).

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    Welcome, and not a daft question at all.

    We do have to work within the GMG.

    In old versions of the law book, the phrase "lineout players" had definitions; in that scenario 3+receiver from throwers and 4+0 from defence would be a free kick.
    I can't find those definitions in the current book, but would apply the previous definitions and give the FK

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Had a clear example on Saturday of the confusion that the USA interpretation causes (or rather, the inconsistency I interpretation as I don't wish to cast aspersions on the interpretation itself, only the decision to be inconsistent with the rest of the world). I was refereeing Bahamas v USA South in the Caribbean championship. Approximately a month ago, prior to the Jamaica v USA South game, this issue was raised in the pre match meeting with USA South management, the IRB interpretation clarified and accepted and we moved forward to the match with no problems. USA South had a number of lineouts which involved bringing the receiver into the line, but they were very disciplined about ensuring a player swapped out into the receiver position, a full 2 metres away, before the ball was thrown. Fast forward a month to Saturday's game and the issue was not raised by USA South in the pre match meeting. I chose not to raise it as I had thought the position was clear. First USA lineout of the game, receiver comes in before ball is thrown, is lifted and catches. No clear swap out, so I free kick with following call, "receiver joining late, no swap". Next time ball is dead, USA South captain comes to me, "Sir, I thought we didn't have to have a receiver so the receiver can join late?". Bear in mind, he had been at the pre Jamaica management. So now I'm reduced to having to give the potted explanation in the middle of a televised international where I'm wired for sound so don't really want to say, "as we discussed a month ago, the USA interprets this differently from the rest of the world.". Situation was managed, and they made a clear effort to swap out a player for the rest of the game, but USA Rugby really needs to think about whether this inconsistency in their GMG is beneficial to their representative teams. As I say, I'm not going to argue the merits or demerits of the interpretation itself (old ground), but I cannot believe USA are really helping their players by holding their ground on this one.

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    I had a similar issue posed to the one by the OP in this thread (and please forgive me if it was already answered).

    Law 19.8 i and 19.8 k make it clear that the receiver may join the lineout. 19.8 i says that the receiver may simply join and 19.8 k says that the receiver may switch with a player in the lineout.

    What is not clear, and what I couldn't understand from this thread so far, was the ruling regarding numbers.
    To pose the scenario that occurred:

    4 Men in lineout from attacking team with no receiver. Matched by 4 from defending side + receiver. Are the defending team violating the numbers rules? I found the wording of the law around this rather confusing and hence the question. I hope I haven't missed the answer above somewhere :/

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Would referees allow an attacking team to throw without a receiver?

    didds

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by viper492 View Post
    I had a similar issue posed to the one by the OP in this thread (and please forgive me if it was already answered).

    Law 19.8 i and 19.8 k make it clear that the receiver may join the lineout. 19.8 i says that the receiver may simply join and 19.8 k says that the receiver may switch with a player in the lineout.

    What is not clear, and what I couldn't understand from this thread so far, was the ruling regarding numbers.
    To pose the scenario that occurred:

    4 Men in lineout from attacking team with no receiver. Matched by 4 from defending side + receiver. Are the defending team violating the numbers rules? I found the wording of the law around this rather confusing and hence the question. I hope I haven't missed the answer above somewhere :/
    My understanding is that they haven't. The definition draws a distinction between "lineout players" who are the players who form the line, and "participating players", which includes the receivers and the thrower and his immediate opponent. The limit on numbers in 19.8(e) applies not to participating players, but to lineout players. In your instance, both teams have 4 lineout players.

    OTOH, I'm a mere armchair fan...

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    Would referees allow an attacking team to throw without a receiver?

    didds
    This referee would.

  10. #20

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    Would referees allow an attacking team to throw without a receiver?

    didds
    Yes. The law does not require there to be a receiver. Tactically it allows the thrower to run into the receiver position.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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