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Thread: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Receiver, in the receiver's position until the ball leaves the thrower's hands, does not count for 'numbers'.

    A receiver is part of the line out, but is not a line out player. Therefore he/she can join/leave the line out (in the receiver position) at any stage.

    Both as a player and referee I see no requirement for the throwing in side to verbally declare (deliberate split infinitive) a reduced line out. "Decide" (19.8(b)) is a mental action word. The next stage is to "put in" fewer than the usual number of players (19.8(e)); the opponents must be given a reasonable time to move players out (19.8(e)). It is a matter of interpretation whether this requires the throwing in side NOT to throw in until reasonable time has passed, or whether the referee will not penalise the non-throwing side until reasonable time has passed for them to react.
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

  2. #32

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by lawsons View Post
    Sorry I'm a bit lost. Throwing in team have called a two man line out. This is matched by the defending team. I won't now allow the receiver to join and make 3 man, without someone dropping out. The only way I'll allow the throwing in side to add a receiver is to have a 'full' line out i.e. 8 players.

    If the throwing in side want a reduced number line out, they need to specify it before the line out to give the defending side a chance to match numbers. By doing that they can't then change their mind without giving the opposition time to match. You'll then have 3 vs 3+1. What benefit is that ?

    So in reality I have never seen this and don't anticipate seeing it. Is this a US only thing and if so, I don't see any benefit to it.
    Throwing in team (Blue) have 3 players in the LO. They also have a receiver.
    Opposition (Red) team have the same.

    Scenario 1:
    Before the ball is thrown in, Blue receiver joins his other three LO players. One of those other three LO players MUST drop back to the receiver's position.
    Ball is then thrown in.
    Note: If blue team only put two players in the lineout, there is no reason to have the receiver "change" places with a LO player at this stage.

    Scenario 2:
    Before the ball is thrown in, Blue has three LO players + the receiver.
    As the lineout begins (ball leaves throwers hands), blue receiver runs into the LO. In this instance, NO player already in the LO is required to drop out. The blue team now has four lineout players but no receiver.
    Red team still have three LO players + a receiver. Play on. Red have the opportunity to mirror what blue does.
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  3. #33

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    I cant believe you are all taking 4 pages to discuss this
    http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?dom...larification=4

    or now in law

    Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.

    Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.

    Line out begins with a throw.
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  4. #34

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by andyscott View Post
    I cant believe you are all taking 4 pages to discuss this
    http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?dom...larification=4

    or now in law

    Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.

    Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.

    Line out begins with a throw.
    Are you saying that my Scenario 1 in post #32 is not legal?
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  5. #35

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Throwing in team (Blue) have 3 players in the LO. They also have a receiver.
    Opposition (Red) team have the same.

    Scenario 1:
    Before the ball is thrown in, Blue receiver joins his other three LO players. One of those other three LO players MUST drop back to the receiver's position.
    Ball is then thrown in.
    Note: If blue team only put two players in the lineout, there is no reason to have the receiver "change" places with a LO player at this stage.
    The numbers do not matter.

    2 or 14 (attacking team)

    The receiver can swap places before the ball is thrown. They cannot add numbers once the line is set, (unless the ball is thrown) then the receiver can join the line. In practice a very very high lobbed ball to the back, otherwise its too early.
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  6. #36

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    Default Re: Receiver joining lineout before throw (and numbers!)

    Quote Originally Posted by lawsons View Post
    Sorry I'm a bit lost. Throwing in team have called a two man line out. This is matched by the defending team. I won't now allow the receiver to join and make 3 man, without someone dropping out. The only way I'll allow the throwing in side to add a receiver is to have a 'full' line out i.e. 8 players.
    If I've read this right, I believe it is incorrect. I suspect, however, that I must have read it wrong.

    When both teams line up with 2+receiver, you are quite correct to prevent the receiver joining without someone else dropping back - but this is only accurate until the ball leaves the thrower's hands, when the receiver can join the line at will. I suspect you know this, but you then go on to say:

    The only way I'll allow the throwing in side to add a receiver is to have a 'full' line out i.e. 8 players.
    However you read this, it has to be incorrect. Firstly, a conventional "full" lineout is 7 players not 8 - the hooker throwing in and his fellow forwards. Whether they choose to field a receiver is optional, and doesn't affect the numbers in the conventional lineout. Of course, a "full" lineout is actually made up of the hooker throwing in and all his team mates, so it comprises 14 lineout players. But even if the conventional lineout is used, once it has formed it would be illegal to add a receiver, as he has inevitably delayed in approaching the line of touch:

    19.8(d) When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay. Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.
    Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line


    But what is the situation for a 5-man or 4-man lineout? You imply that it is different than the "full" lineout, but in fact it is not. Anything you can do in a full lineout you can do in a reduced (or extended) lineout.
    Don't feed the pedant!

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