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Thread: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

      
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    Default Re: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rushforth View Post
    Find me a similar example of a pass which I would consider clearly and obviously forward, being caught in goal, in which the referee asks for review, and the TMO allows the try to stand. With commentary from the country scored against, if at all possible.
    Hello,

    I'll introduce myself properly later, but firstly please let me contribute to this thread as it was precisely the "forward pass/momentum" debate that brought me here in the first place (I've been reading this forum for a while now and learned a lot, but I'm just registering now). It doesn't fit perfectly well to your demand, but I hope you'll find it relevant:



    I don't know why but I can't make it to work to start at the right moment, please go to 29'23" (youtube, not playtime).

    I also happen to be a Toulouse fan, but I'm not contesting Toulon's victory or the TMO decision, though I tend to think that it was a wrong one. I was first not convinced by the momentum interpretation but I changed my mind on the topic after a lot of observation and practice.


    PS : I hope my English is not too rusty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Womble:242318
    in the OP the passers hands move forward & his fingers try to put a backward movement on the ball relative to his body speed yet he fails, so the ball movesforward from his hands, therefor no try... however, if the ball had gone back relative to his body speed the try would have been good. More importantly Rushforth & crossref are both the same person and I believe to either have female brains or are female & I claim my $20
    Not at all. I don't agree with Rushforth on this, but just acknowledging that this decision does support it.

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rushforth View Post
    I'm saying that in 500 matches as TJ (not AR), players generally managed to pass the ball backwards, most of the time, relative to the field of play.

    As TJ I would be up with the play, as opposed to this AR leading/trailing stuff. Even so, I cannot recall a single pass which I considered the referee to have "missed" as being forwards without giving him the benefit of the doubt as to his position.
    You should be following "lead and trail" as a TJ or an AR. Even for things like direct into touch one TJ / AR needs to establish where the line of touch should be. Lead and trail is basic stuff. Ok club TJs will not do it in fact they probably will not be paying much attention at all.

    As OB pointed out keeping up with the play will alter your perspective anyway to that of relative to players and not the filed of play. You're actually countering your own argument!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    well, like it or not : it's a decision that clearly supports Rushforth's view of the Laws.
    The Video is not conclusive, If it is then the TMO and Rushforth are wrong in the eyes of the IRB.
    The tenet that a referee is the sole arbiter of fact and law, allows me to be wrong, not stupid.

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    Default Re: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rushforth View Post
    You seem to be confused as to what I meant by "up with the play". I'm talking about actual games, with opponents who are both willing and able to tackle players, and attackers willing to set up multiple phases and sometimes perfectly happy if they go forwards (towards the opposition try line) 5 metres in a minute. Particularly if they have been awarded a penalty 5 metres away from the opposition try line, and it takes them a minute to score a try.

    Now, as a spectator, I would rather be up with the play at both ends of the field, rather than standing/sitting in one spot all the time. As such, carrying around a flag as TJ seemed a natural extension.

    Of course, as AR, I am aware that the offside lines and the gainline are the responsibility of the referee alone, and I should instead be anticipating where the ball may go out whenever there is a chance it will do so on my side of the field, whilst also looking for off-the-ball action. Not that I'm very good at the latter, because I automatically revert to at least watching the "action".

    Not once had I seen a player release the ball well before the try line and another catch it in goal. Now I have, and what happened is that the referee did what I would do if I had both doubts and the opportunity for a replay, namely call for the TMO to review. The TMO then advised the referee that the ball had, in fact, travelled in the direction of the oppositions dead ball line, after which the referee said "aller en avant" in explanation of not awarding the try, despite the ball having been grounded.

    Find me a similar example of a pass which I would consider clearly and obviously forward, being caught in goal, in which the referee asks for review, and the TMO allows the try to stand. With commentary from the country scored against, if at all possible.
    I don't understand this post.
    What relevance to "keeping up with play" does: "...I'm talking about actual games, with opponents who are both willing and able to tackle players, and attackers willing to set up multiple phases and sometimes perfectly happy if they go forwards (towards the opposition try line) 5 metres in a minute. Particularly if they have been awarded a penalty 5 metres away from the opposition try line, and it takes them a minute to score a try..." have?

    Most game see players willing and able to tackle etc nothing to do with the AR / TJ keeping up.
    The tenet that a referee is the sole arbiter of fact and law, allows me to be wrong, not stupid.

  5. #35

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    Default Re: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Not at all. I don't agree with Rushforth on this, but just acknowledging that this decision does support it.
    IMO it doesn't support it, only an opinion I know
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog!

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    Default Re: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vann View Post
    Hello,

    I'll introduce myself properly later, but firstly please let me contribute to this thread as it was precisely the "forward pass/momentum" debate that brought me here in the first place (I've been reading this forum for a while now and learned a lot, but I'm just registering now). It doesn't fit perfectly well to your demand, but I hope you'll find it relevant:



    I don't know why but I can't make it to work to start at the right moment, please go to 29'23" (youtube, not playtime).

    I also happen to be a Toulouse fan, but I'm not contesting Toulon's victory or the TMO decision, though I tend to think that it was a wrong one. I was first not convinced by the momentum interpretation but I changed my mind on the topic after a lot of observation and practice.


    PS : I hope my English is not too rusty
    Welcome

    Your English is better than that of some of the native speakers around here!
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    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

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    Default Re: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

    Far better than mine for sure.....
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog!

  8. #38

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    Default Re: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vann View Post
    I don't know why but I can't make it to work to start at the right moment, please go to 29'23" (youtube, not playtime).
    You need to add #t=29m23s to the end of the URL.

    That clip is a good example of why I do not think forward passes can be sensibly judged on a 2D screen (by a static TMO). It is difficult (impossible?) to judge how move of the ball's apparent movement is upwards and how much is forwards/backwards.

    FWIW (which I don't think is much) I would estimate that after the ball left the player's hands it was travelling forward faster than the player ie he had added to its forward speed and it was therefore a forward pass.

    Individual examples have limited value since one side or the other of the argument can always point out that everybody makes mistakes. I have been going through this sort of discussion at regular intervals ever since I first started posting on rugby forums. So far nobody has ever produced any official pronouncement to support the "classic" interpretation. I had hoped that when the ARU/IRB video came out it would convince people but the personal belief is firmly ingrained and takes some shifting because the alternative seems counter-intuitive.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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    Default Re: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by All The Time Ref View Post
    You should be following "lead and trail" as a TJ or an AR.
    No shit, Sherlock. In the three years since having heard of triangulation, I've done my best, but with only one match as AR, I'll probably revert to club TJ mode (30 years) more than most.

    I don't think you know what my argument is, or rather, I don't think you understand my meta-argument. Namely, that the laws of a sport (which has laws rather than rules) are like the laws of physics, as opposed to like legislation enacted by kind-spirited public servants.

    Like others, I was somewhat incredulous that Google pay all of 0.1% tax in the UK. Not particularly surprised, mind, because obviously Google can afford very good tax lawyers and accountants, and stay within the letter of the law whilst perhaps - just maybe - being a little bit evil.

    And at first I was incredulous too when in the first year of my study of natural philosophy it was explained how you cannot simply keep multiplying speeds by 10 or by 2 and go infinitely fast, but that the universe imposes its will upon us all.

    Watching actual rugby matches, as I prefer to do over televised ones, means that I am fully aware of the imperfection of referees, myself first and foremost, and I have no problem whatsoever with the concepts of materiality and not being too heavy handed with the whistle. I've even acknowledged that the law does have a wording which turns out to be ambiguous.

    Now, if we take the laws of rugby to be more like laws enacted by governments. Imagine a court case, with the two teams of lawyers representing the players, the referee the judge, and the jury of peers to be the spectators. My position is - shock horror - not always that of one of the teams of lawyers. In fact, the reason that I am discussing on this site is because I'm interested in the position of the judge being asked what the law is by a hung jury, and being found obliged to say "I don't know, because the law is ambiguous".

  10. #40

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    Default Re: Top14 Toulon - Stade Toulousain (pass over the head, TMO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rushforth View Post
    Now, if we take the laws of rugby to be more like laws enacted by governments. Imagine a court case, with the two teams of lawyers representing the players, the referee the judge, and the jury of peers to be the spectators. My position is - shock horror - not always that of one of the teams of lawyers. In fact, the reason that I am discussing on this site is because I'm interested in the position of the judge being asked what the law is by a hung jury, and being found obliged to say "I don't know, because the law is ambiguous".
    A judge, like a referee will make a decision. If there is an appeal, his decision may be overturned (up to 1969 that was also an option in rugby). In this case we have decisions from higher "courts" (RFU, ARU, IRB) setting precedents for us to follow.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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