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Thread: Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

      
  1. #1

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    Default Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

    So today I had my first game under the new scrum laws. Context was a very local derby; black (L7) vs. Blue (L8, relegated last season), with two teams known to have interesting disciplinary records. Final score was 7-0 to Black.


    What I found today was:
    - the players still try to make a hit
    - more padded front row players will complain that the calls are too slow as it has changed from a weight contest to a more skillful core stability effort
    - delaying the 'yes 9' call is effective in allowing the scrum to settle and remain stationary and square
    - beware of teams who will start their shove on 'yes 9', not when the ball is put in
    - scrum halves struggle to put the ball in straight, despite PMB and FKs
    - teams who take the time to invite referees down benefit from it and are more compliant
    - winning scrums against the head are more commonplace now

    Once bound, the front rows sort of lean on each other between 'bind' and 'set'. Is this a problem?

    Personally I found it is a good change for us as referees as it has separated out the three principle things we look at: binding; the hit/engagement; and the put in. It allows us to check these more effectively.

    What have other people found with the scrum?

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    Default Re: Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

    Very clear assessment of the current state of play Adam. Not at all unlike the trial games I have watched at similar levels.
    An excellent opportunity for refs to show their man management skills without relying on prescriptive procedures.
    The skillful front rows will be able to captitalise on the rediscovery of 'hooking' and the good refs will be able to demonstrate their competence by enabling that skill to be demonstrated by applying the law as intended.

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    Default Re: Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    So today I had my first game under the new scrum laws. Context was a very local derby; black (L7) vs. Blue (L8, relegated last season), with two teams known to have interesting disciplinary records. Final score was 7-0 to Black.


    What I found today was:
    - the players still try to make a hit
    - more padded front row players will complain that the calls are too slow as it has changed from a weight contest to a more skillful core stability effort
    - delaying the 'yes 9' call is effective in allowing the scrum to settle and remain stationary and square
    - beware of teams who will start their shove on 'yes 9', not when the ball is put in
    - scrum halves struggle to put the ball in straight, despite PMB and FKs
    - teams who take the time to invite referees down benefit from it and are more compliant
    - winning scrums against the head are more commonplace now

    Once bound, the front rows sort of lean on each other between 'bind' and 'set'. Is this a problem?

    Personally I found it is a good change for us as referees as it has separated out the three principle things we look at: binding; the hit/engagement; and the put in. It allows us to check these more effectively.

    What have other people found with the scrum?
    Interesting Adam, .............. Did you notice props repositioning their bind arm long, or did they simply maintain their pre-set handgrip position & end up with bent/levering elbows after the 'set'? Did you notice increased or decreased boreing or twisting? and did you have more or less scrum offences compared to last seasons experiences?

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    Default Re: Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Browner View Post
    Interesting Adam, .............. Did you notice props repositioning their bind arm long, or did they simply maintain their pre-set handgrip position & end up with bent/levering elbows after the 'set'? Did you notice increased or decreased boreing or twisting? and did you have more or less scrum offences compared to last seasons experiences?
    I noticed one LHP with his elbow down once engaged so I assume he didn't re-position his bind. Didn't penalise him for it as it never became material so just talked to him about it. Good point though and something to look at and work on next match.

    I didn't think I gave (m)any PKs at scrum time and I don't remember a collapsed scrum. To be honest I think the players had enough on their plate getting used to the new scrum calls. Saying that there were a few instances of the front rows taking each other down to a low level, but nothing touching the ground and they didn't collapse so played on. Another thing to be wary of in future matches.

    I gave quite a few FKs for not straight put ins, but otherwise the scrums went fine and I had no real issues.

    The number eights still wanted to slingshot in at the start but I think later on they realised there wasn't much point in that any more.

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    Default Re: Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

    I've now refereed two games with the new scrum procedure, both with different challenges.

    In the first game the scrum was a shambles! Both front rows could not grasp the fact that they could not push until the ball came in, if they weren't driving as soon as they had 'set', they would drive as soon as I said "Yes 9". Needless to say after 4 scrubs this became rather tiresome!!!!!!! I then came up with a technically incorrect analogy for the scrum, however, it seemed to do the trick. I told both FR's that to all intents and purposes, the scrims are basically uncontested until the ball is fed in by the 9. As I said, the cynically incorrect, however, it seemed to help the situation. The situation wasn't helped by both coaches stating after the game they had been coaching their players to win the 'hit' as soon as the engage was given. I tried to educate then that there is no such thing as the hit and engage, but they would not listen.........

    Luckily the FR's in the second game grasped that fact, the problem in this game was trying to get the 9 to not feed the ball until I told him, which resulted in 3 FK's each side for this offence.

    After yesterday's game I spoke to both coaches, and they raised a very valid point in my opinion. We as Referees all seem to zero in on the FR, however, ask yourself, where does the power realistically come from in the Scrum? The Second Row! We are briefing the FR's as part of our pre match briefs, but has anyone really taken the time to explain the new laws to the second row? Judging by my experiences so far, I would say this is a big fat no. Due to this, I am going to ensure I brief the second rows of the procedure for the first few games of the season, just to ensure they are fully aware with the laws.

    I then spent the next 20 mins discussing their ideas for resolving the second row early drive. There were a number of ideas, all of which would not/could not be used, with one of their ideas being to keep the second row on one knee until the ball is fed in, to which I replied, in that case I would not let the 9 feed the ball in until they were up due to the fact that scrum would not be set until all 16 pax involved were in a position to drive once the ball is in.

    The only way to resolve this idea in my mind is to revert to a FR leader, just like I used to employ when I was hooking, have your prop on the side of the out in shout ready, ready, ready until the ball comes in, then shout the obligatory NOW!!!!!!! This then leaves none of your team in doubt as to when the ball is in and you can drive....
    "Well it's a combination of factors really!!!!":yc:

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    Default Re: Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

    I don't like the "Yes 9" aspect of the new scrum engagement. It gives the opposing side a heads up as to when the ball is coming in, thereby losing some of the advantage of having the throw in. It also encourages the tight-five to push early.

    In the "old days" it was the hooker who indicated that he was ready to have the ball in by tapping his lucy on the shoulder as a signal to the SH. The SH and the hooker would have a pre-arranged cadence, something like TAP - TAP - IN.

    IMO, the "Yes 9" should be an invitation to feed the scrum, not an instruction to do so.

    From what I have seen so far in last niughts test and this weekend's ITM Cup matches in NZ, referees are still getting SH to put the ball in when the scrum is still moving and not square
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 18-08-13 at 09:08.
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    Default

    But which is it? 'yes 9' is it an instruction or an invitation?

    It's still not mentioned in the irb or RFU website.

    This is the problem with making up protocols on the fly and not trialling them..

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    Default Re: Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

    Crossref take a look at this link, especially para 3, it'll answer your question

    http://www.armyrugbyunion.org.uk/wp-...ugust-2013.pdf
    "Well it's a combination of factors really!!!!":yc:

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    Default Re: Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I don't like the "Yes 9" aspect of the new scrum engagement. It gives the opposing side a heads up as to when the ball is coming in, thereby losing some of the advantage of having the throw in. It also encourages the tight-five to push early.

    In the "old days" it was the hooker who indicated that he was ready to have the ball in by tapping his lucy on the shoulder as a signal to the SH. The SH and the hooker would have a pre-arranged cadence, something like TAP - TAP - IN.

    IMO, the "Yes 9" should be an invitation to feed the scrum, not an instruction to do so.

    From what I have seen so far in last niughts test and this weekend's ITM Cup matches in NZ, referees are still getting SH to put the ball in when the scrum is still moving and not square
    The 'Yes 9' is only an invitation, therefore, the putting in team still have an element of surprise (all be it very small) with which to feed the ball in
    "Well it's a combination of factors really!!!!":yc:

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    Default Re: Experiences of Crouch-Bind-Set-Yes 9

    Quote Originally Posted by taff426 View Post
    Crossref take a look at this link, especially para 3, it'll answer your question

    http://www.armyrugbyunion.org.uk/wp-...ugust-2013.pdf
    it does -- the RFU really should publish that document. Seriously.

    given Ian's post above. I wonder if it is in line with ARFU advice.

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