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Thread: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

      
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    Default Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    Just a question about an U19's game recently.
    Mass brawl broke out. I saw 2 players in the middle of it all trading punches at each other.
    If the punches were just swung and not landed, would you tend to give them a yellow instead of red ? I took the view that aiming ans swinging a fist at an opponents head was sufficiently dangerous to warrant a red. But other refs have mentioned that they have yellowed swinging punches if they miss their target.
    Advice please ?

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    Default Re: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    The intent is shown to cause damage. Just because they have the skills of asthmatic kittens with one eye shouldn't detract from the sanction.

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    Default Re: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    If you RC them, what Law/offence are you going to cite on your report for the judiciary hearing if they were swinging but not connecting?

    From your description of the events, surely they made some contact otherwise I'm picturing two players with arms rotating like windmills but not close enogh to hit each other.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

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    Default Re: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    Since punching is an offence, then attempting to punch must be misconduct under 10.4 (m).
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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    Default Re: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    Throwing a punch is punching whether or not they land. If you would have YC a punch that lands, you should YC on one that does not. If a punch is sufficiently serious to warrant a RC it is a RC whether or not it lands.

    Judge on the number thrown, circumstances etc.
    The tenet that a referee is the sole arbiter of fact and law, allows me to be wrong, not stupid.

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    Default Re: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    IMO not to RC a missed swing is basically syaing the perp got away with it because the potential target had better eveasion skills than somebody esle.

    ie the same swing connects with somebody slow in evasion = RC, but if the recipient is quick enough to evade then = YC. Such an approach is nonsensical becasue the ultuimate card actually relies on the recipient;s actions not the perp.

    RC for me everytime but having had this discussion here before it appears I am wrong and that it is all about contact.

    didds

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    Default Re: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    didds,
    Thanks. Yes that is where I am starting to wonder if I am a bit red-card trigger happy. Players get emotional and ( at certain age-groups ) react first and think later. Having read about cases of head punches causing trauma and even proving fatal in rare cases, I don't like taking chances and err on the side of safety. So if the intent was there to aim a punch to the head then its a straight red.

    The next follow-on question is concerning retaliation. If someone gets punched , can you red-card the first puncher and yellow the second. Is retaliation seen as less of an offence than the initial foul-play ?

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    Default Re: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    Nope. Not at all. Are there four corners with ropes going round and canvas floor?
    do they wear boxing gloves?
    is it rugby?

    the intent to cause harm was there.
    Last edited by Daftmedic; 16-09-13 at 11:09.

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    Default Re: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrouchTPEngage View Post
    didds,
    Thanks. Yes that is where I am starting to wonder if I am a bit red-card trigger happy. Players get emotional and ( at certain age-groups ) react first and think later. Having read about cases of head punches causing trauma and even proving fatal in rare cases, I don't like taking chances and err on the side of safety. So if the intent was there to aim a punch to the head then its a straight red.

    The next follow-on question is concerning retaliation. If someone gets punched , can you red-card the first puncher and yellow the second. Is retaliation seen as less of an offence than the initial foul-play ?
    You are right that age groups can get emotional - but they need to learn to curb their agression - and quickly. If you wimp out of the RC sanction, you can end up in situations like this one http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...te-school.html (local to me, with very severe impact on reputations and the threat of criminal action).

    A retaliatory punch is no less a punch for the provocation. Punch A = card. Punch B = card. Generally speaking, the cards will be the same colour (though there may be reasons why one is different from the other - e.g. Punch A = relatively gentle SH push at scrum time accidentally high becoming a strike to the arm; Punch B = closed fist haymaker to the side of the face).
    Don't feed the pedant!

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    Default Re: Punching fighting. If punches miss, is that not a red then ?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrouchTPEngage View Post
    The next follow-on question is concerning retaliation. If someone gets punched , can you red-card the first puncher and yellow the second.

    Yes. But why not RC the retaliation?

    Its the thin end of the wedge - if you are seen to be softy on retaliation could it not open the flood gates after any "1st punch" ?

    I am quite happy to be better educated, but i can't see that you can RC one punch (connected or not) and not another. The tribunal can sort out the retaliation aspects and level of punishments.


    didds

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