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Thread: one man unplayable maul

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Yes, I wouldn't allow that either. When the maul hits the deck I'm OK with suspended animation but wouldn't allow someone to start competing for the ball.
    In a similar way, I wouldn't allow players who were not part of the maul to flop on top to stop the ball from being made available. In such a situation, those "new" players should be penalised rather than turn over scrum.
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    In a similar way, I wouldn't allow players who were not part of the maul to flop on top to stop the ball from being made available. In such a situation, those "new" players should be penalised rather than turn over scrum.
    That's an interesting view TheFat but it does raise a question....given that whilst the maul exists any player can join onto it at any time and therefore any late joiner can do whatever he can to stop the ball merging (deliberate collapse excepted) until such time as the maul is deemed unplayable ,

    under what authority do you stop them from doing exactly that?

  3. #13

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Browner View Post
    That's an interesting view TheFat but it does raise a question....given that whilst the maul exists any player can join onto it at any time and therefore any late joiner can do whatever he can to stop the ball merging (deliberate collapse excepted) until such time as the maul is deemed unplayable ,

    under what authority do you stop them from doing exactly that?
    Red take ball into contact and a maul forms.
    Blue have the ball carrier who now works hard to go to ground and succeeds but blue defenders aren't letting go and all end up in a pile on the ground.
    The referee is looking to see if the ball is being made available and two more blue players who were not part of the maul dive onto the pile to make sure the ball is trapped in there to ensure a turn over scrum.

    Your decision = ???
    My decision = PK against the blue players diving/flopping on top to kill the ball.

    If they want a law reference, start with 17.2(f) or throw 14.2(b) in for good measure.
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  4. #14
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Red take ball into contact and a maul forms.
    Blue have the ball carrier who now works hard to go to ground and succeeds but blue defenders aren't letting go and all end up in a pile on the ground.
    The referee is looking to see if the ball is being made available and two more blue players who were not part of the maul dive onto the pile to make sure the ball is trapped in there to ensure a turn over scrum.

    Your decision = ???
    My decision = PK against the blue players diving/flopping on top to kill the ball.

    If they want a law reference, start with 17.2(f) or throw 14.2(b) in for good measure.
    In this scenario when the maul is collapsed, it is required that the ball be immediately available, therefore the referee should blow the whistle immediately if it is NOT immediately available. Note: players wanting to pile in is evidence that the ball is not immediately available. So the opportunity for player to pile in after the collapse should not occur, the whistle should have already been blown.

    So my solution, be quick with the whistle, call the turnover before the problems arise.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    happened in my game yesterday. Blue v Green.

    Blue take ball into contact and a maul forms. I call "maul" and the maul becomes stationary and then collapses.

    As luck would have it, as maul collapses, Green player ends up with the ball, on the ground, by himself but on the fringe of pile of bodies.

    Blue halfback attempts to pick up ball but Green player on ground refuses to let it go. Just to be clear, we have a 1 on 1 situation.

    Was Green entitled to hang on to the ball as the maul ended unsuccessfully or is he now obliged to let the ball go to player on feet?
    A maul ends successfully when the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul, or after a collapse when the ball is immediately playable.

    In this case the maul has ended successfully and the ball is playable (as evidenced by the Blue halfback getting his hands on it). It's play on. The Green player is not entitled to hang onto the ball, and if he refuses to give it up, then PK to Blue.

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    A maul ends successfully when the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul, or after a collapse when the ball is immediately playable.

    In this case the maul has ended successfully and the ball is playable (as evidenced by the Blue halfback getting his hands on it). It's play on. The Green player is not entitled to hang onto the ball, and if he refuses to give it up, then PK to Blue.
    Can you clarify in law please?
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    Can you clarify in law please?
    Certainly.
    17.5 A maul ends successfully when :

    • the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul

    17.6 (g)
    If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.


    In this case the maul has successfully ended as per 17.5.
    Further the ball carrier has gone to ground, and the ball is playable, so there is no obligation to call a scrum under 17.6 (g)

    Thereafter:

    14.1 Players on the ground
    (a)

    A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:


    • Get up with the ball
    • Pass the ball
    • Release the ball.

    Sanction: Penalty kick

  8. #18

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Red take ball into contact and a maul forms.
    Blue have the ball carrier who now works hard to go to ground and succeeds but blue defenders aren't letting go and all end up in a pile on the ground.
    The referee is looking to see if the ball is being made available and two more blue players who were not part of the maul dive onto the pile to make sure the ball is trapped in there to ensure a turn over scrum.

    Your decision = ???
    My decision = PK against the blue players diving/flopping on top to kill the ball.

    If they want a law reference, start with 17.2(f) or throw 14.2(b) in for good measure.
    The ball must be 'immediately' available.
    If the ball has to be "made available", then its not 'immediately' available.
    Turnover scrum.

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  9. #19

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Red take ball into contact and a maul forms.
    Blue have the ball carrier who now works hard to go to ground and succeeds but blue defenders aren't letting go and all end up in a pile on the ground.
    The referee is looking to see if the ball is being made available and two more blue players who were not part of the maul dive onto the pile to make sure the ball is trapped in there to ensure a turn over scrum.

    Your decision = ???
    My decision = PK against the blue players diving/flopping on top to kill the ball.

    If they want a law reference, start with 17.2(f) or throw 14.2(b) in for good measure.


    There has to be a sequence of events.
    Maul collapses as red ball carrier forces his way to ground and blue defenders, who are entitled to hang, end up on top of the ball carrier.
    The law allows the ball carrier to deliberately go to ground but says that he must make the ball immediately available. This requires a further action by the ball carrier, the next step in the sequence if you like. He goes to ground and immediately starts to place the ball towards his team mates. For all intents and purposes he is making the ball immediately available.
    Now are you guys saying that rather than having a look to see if the ball is available/being made available, you simply blow for a turn over scrum because the ball isn't instantly in the open behind the collapsed maul??? How is the ball supposed to get there? There has to be a sequence.
    In my scenario above, I'm saying that as the ball carrier is in the action of placing the ball back (thereby making it available), two more defenders flop on the collapsed maul. All of this happens in a second or two.
    Last edited by The Fat; 31-07-14 at 13:07.
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  10. #20
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    I think it's a matter of timing.

    Player with ball comes free as the maul hits the deck and before you get a peep out then play as per Greig. Hits the deck, unplayable, peep, play rolls free then Phil E call.

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