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Thread: one man unplayable maul

      
  1. #21

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    There has to be a sequence of events.
    Maul collapses as red ball carrier forces his way to ground and blue defenders, who are entitled to hang, end up on top of the ball carrier.
    The law allows the ball carrier to deliberately go to ground but says that he must make the ball immediately available. This requires a further action by the ball carrier, the next step in the sequence if you like. He goes to ground and immediately starts to place the ball towards his team mates. For all intents and purposes he is making the ball immediately available.
    Now are you guys saying that rather than having a look to see if the ball is available/being made available, you simply blow for a turn over scrum because the ball isn't instantly in the open behind the collapsed maul??? How is the ball supposed to get there? There has to be a sequence.
    In my scenario above, I'm saying that as the ball carrier is in the action of placing the ball back (thereby making it available), two more defenders flop on the collapsed maul. All of this happens in a second or two.

    There is no series of events mentioned here.
    The ball is either available or it isn't.

    17.6 UNSUCCESSFUL END TO A MAUL
    (g)If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting,
    the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

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  2. #22

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    In this scenario when the maul is collapsed, it is required that the ball be immediately available, therefore the referee should blow the whistle immediately if it is NOT immediately available. Note: players wanting to pile in is evidence that the ball is not immediately available. So the opportunity for player to pile in after the collapse should not occur, the whistle should have already been blown.

    So my solution, be quick with the whistle, call the turnover before the problems arise.
    So if there were say 8 players in the maul and the ball carrier and 2 defenders who had hold of him end up on the ground as the result of the ball carrier forcing his way to ground but the other 5 players remain on their feet, would you have a look to see if the ball carrier was making the ball available or would you blow it up because the ball wasn't "immediately" available?
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  3. #23

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    There is no series of events mentioned here.
    The ball is either available or it isn't.

    17.6 UNSUCCESSFUL END TO A MAUL
    (g)If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting,
    the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.
    Can you give an example of how the ball would be "immediately" available if not for an action by the ball carrier?
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  4. #24

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Can you give an example of how the ball would be "immediately" available if not for an action by the ball carrier?
    As he goes to ground he places the ball.
    If he can't, or doesn't then its not immediate.

    The usual reason for going to ground by the ball carrier is because he is wrapped up and cant get the ball to the back of the maul, he deserves to lose it. He shouldn't therefore be allowed to go to ground and then wrestle the ball free and then manoeuvre it to the back. That is not immediate.

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  5. #25

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    As he goes to ground he places the ball.
    If he can't, or doesn't then its not immediate.

    The usual reason for going to ground by the ball carrier is because he is wrapped up and cant get the ball to the back of the maul, he deserves to lose it. He shouldn't therefore be allowed to go to ground and then wrestle the ball free and then manoeuvre it to the back. That is not immediate.
    totally agree here. problem is - the opposition keeps grabbing and pulling while on the deck. there either needs to be "no movement" or the man with the ball must be able to protect the ball. this needs to be addressed one of these days.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Red take ball into contact and a maul forms.
    Blue have the ball carrier who now works hard to go to ground and succeeds but blue defenders aren't letting go and all end up in a pile on the ground.
    The referee is looking to see if the ball is being made available and two more blue players who were not part of the maul dive onto the pile to make sure the ball is trapped in there to ensure a turn over scrum.

    Your decision = ???
    My decision = PK against the blue players diving/flopping on top to kill the ball.

    If they want a law reference, start with 17.2(f) or throw 14.2(b) in for good measure.
    Both of those are tenuous & stretching law IMO.........
    I'm in the "if you can't make it available immediately - you lose it" camp.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    So if there were say 8 players in the maul and the ball carrier and 2 defenders who had hold of him end up on the ground as the result of the ball carrier forcing his way to ground but the other 5 players remain on their feet, would you have a look to see if the ball carrier was making the ball available or would you blow it up because the ball wasn't "immediately" available?
    If the BC is wrapped up by the two defenders so the ball is not immediately available, I would blow it as per 17.6(g) and award a scrum. Further I would immediately blow the whistle and stop play to prevent further (potentially foul play) contest for the ball.

  8. #28

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    If the BC is wrapped up by the two defenders so the ball is not immediately available, I would blow it as per 17.6(g) and award a scrum. Further I would immediately blow the whistle and stop play to prevent further (potentially foul play) contest for the ball.
    Agreed.
    17.6 (f) When the ball in a maul becomes unplayable, the referee does not allow prolonged wrestling for it. A scrum is ordered.
    (I'm not sure "prolonged" is really needed.)
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
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  9. #29

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Greig View Post
    If the BC is wrapped up by the two defenders so the ball is not immediately available, I would blow it as per 17.6(g) and award a scrum. Further I would immediately blow the whistle and stop play to prevent further (potentially foul play) contest for the ball.
    I do agree with you that if 2 defenders have the ball carrier and the ball completely wrapped up when the ball carrier goes to ground, it is pretty obvious that the ball is not coming out and it is whistle for turn over scrum. However, what if the ball carrier is held by 2 defenders but they do not have the ball wrapped up and the ball carrier manages to get to ground and the 2 defenders go down with him, leaving say 5 players on their feet. How long do you give the ball carrier to make the ball available before you blow for a turn over scrum?
    1 second?
    2 seconds?
    3 seconds?
    4 seconds?
    (please choose one)

    Now same scenario but ALL players in the maul end up on the ground but the ball carrier is still able to do something to make the ball available.
    How long do you give the ball carrier to make the ball available before you blow for a turn over scrum?
    1 second?
    2 seconds?
    3 seconds?
    4 seconds?
    (please choose one)

    Phil E, Browner and OB,
    please feel free to give an answer to these two questions.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  10. #30

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Phil E, Browner and OB,
    please feel free to give an answer to these two questions.
    "How long is immediately?"

    "As long as it takes me to say it".........that's what every referee I know says to that question.

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