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Thread: one man unplayable maul

      
  1. #31
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Stop!

    The terms "collapsed" and "immediately available" do not appear in the same bit of Law.

    If a maul collapses it has ended unsuccessfully. Peep! Turnover scrum! No discussion. Law 17.6(b)

    If a player with the ball in a maul goes to ground then the ball must be "immediately available" or it has ended unsuccessfully. There is not a requirement (ie. no sanction) in Law 17.6(g) for that player to play or release the ball but if it's not immediately available it's ended unsuccessfully. Peep! Turnover scrum!

    "Available" can include on the ground and playable with the feet as per a ruck. (Yes, Dorothy, a maul can become a ruck).

  2. #32

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    Stop!

    The terms "collapsed" and "immediately available" do not appear in the same bit of Law.

    If a maul collapses it has ended unsuccessfully. Peep! Turnover scrum! No discussion. Law 17.6(b)

    If a player with the ball in a maul goes to ground then the ball must be "immediately available" or it has ended unsuccessfully. There is not a requirement (ie. no sanction) in Law 17.6(g) for that player to play or release the ball but if it's not immediately available it's ended unsuccessfully. Peep! Turnover scrum!

    "Available" can include on the ground and playable with the feet as per a ruck. (Yes, Dorothy, a maul can become a ruck).
    Regarding the part I have highlighted in red, what would you allow the ball carrier to do to make the ball available?
    1) If he was able to place it back as he was going to ground?
    2) If he went to ground facing his own team and was able to place it back?
    3) If he went to ground facing his opponents but was able to immediately roll and place it back?

    None of the above?
    1?
    2?
    3?
    A combination of any of 1, 2 or 3?
    All of the above?
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  3. #33

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Regarding the part I have highlighted in red, what would you allow the ball carrier to do to make the ball available?
    1) If he was able to place it back as he was going to ground?
    2) If he went to ground facing his own team and was able to place it back?
    3) If he went to ground facing his opponents but was able to immediately roll and place it back?

    None of the above?
    1?
    2?
    3?
    A combination of any of 1, 2 or 3?
    All of the above?
    If the ball carrier has to struggle to get the ball back, then it was not immediately available. It was still caught in the maul.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  4. #34

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    If the ball carrier has to struggle to get the ball back, then it was not immediately available. It was still caught in the maul.
    Agree with you OB but that was not one of the 3 scenarios in my post. No struggling involved in any of the 3 scenarios, just an action by the ball carrier to make the ball available.
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  5. #35

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Agree with you OB but that was not one of the 3 scenarios in my post. No struggling involved in any of the 3 scenarios, just an action by the ball carrier to make the ball available.
    You were focussing on the ball carrier making the ball available. The requirement is for it to be available - it is not essential for the ball carrier to do anything at all as long as the scrum half can immediately pick up the ball.

    I did not like your (3) because if the player is facing the wrong way, it is unlikely that he will be able to roll over and place the ball easily. I prefer my formulation.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  6. #36
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    "Available" can include on the ground and playable with the feet as per a ruck. (Yes, Dorothy, a maul can become a ruck).

    Last line of my previous post #31. If he can immediately place it or release it such that it can either be retrieved by the SH or played with the feet in the maul then "All of the above".

    From a coaching perspective I prefer the BC to stay on his feet and force the ball to ground and play it back by foot.

  7. #37

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    You were focussing on the ball carrier making the ball available. The requirement is for it to be available - it is not essential for the ball carrier to do anything at all as long as the scrum half can immediately pick up the ball.

    I did not like your (3) because if the player is facing the wrong way, it is unlikely that he will be able to roll over and place the ball easily. I prefer my formulation.
    A ball carrier goes to ground in an attempt to avoid a turn over scrum. As he is going to ground or as he hits the ground, it is natural that he will do something to help get the ball to a place where it is available. I think that my 3 scenarios, while not exhaustive, cover some of the things a ball carrier will do to avoid a turn over scrum.
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  8. #38
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    A ball carrier goes to ground in an attempt to avoid a turn over scrum. As he is going to ground or as he hits the ground, it is natural that he will do something to help get the ball to a place where it is available. I think that my 3 scenarios, while not exhaustive, cover some of the things a ball carrier will do to avoid a turn over scrum.
    Law expects everyone to remain on their feet in a maul
    . Players in a maul must endeavour to stay on their feet.
    the allowance for the BC G2G is conditional upon the ball being immediately available (and this requires immediate release by BC.

    No time allowance for the BC to then try and prevent a turnover through wriggling/repositioning/hanging/holding/wrestling, irrespective of whether his team would wish it, if others are preventing the BC making it available release then so be it = scrum.

    The golden rule is, you take it into maul then you bring it out. Law (as written) doesnt want collapsed mauls hense a quick whistle is the expectation.

  9. #39

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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    I have been going through several videos of mauls where the ball carrier has gone to ground. The referees involved are Craig Joubert and Nigel Owens. In almost all of them, the time lapsed from when the BC goes to ground to the referee blowing his whistle for a turn over scrum ranges from 3 to 5 seconds. During that time, it is obvious that CJ and NO are looking to see if the ball is getting to a place where it becomes available. They are not blowing immediately. They are looking to see if play can continue which obviously means the team in possession doing something to make the ball "immediately" available.

    I agree with all of you (Greig, Phil E, OB, Marauder, Browner) that the law says,
    "If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available".

    However, what I am saying is that the ball cannot magically appear at the back of the maul for the SH to be able to play it without some action by the ball carrier. In most of the videos I viewed, it is obvious that the referee is looking to see if the ball is making it's way (being made available if you like) to a point where the SH can play it.
    The question then must be, are the two referees involved taking the view that providing the ball is immediately being moved from the ball carrier to a point where the SH can play it they deem that to satisfy the "being immediately available" requirement?
    If the ball is not moving back or is obviously caught in by one or more defenders, then the referee will blow immediately (NO does this in one video I viewed as he could see that the defenders had the ball wrapped up as the ball carrier was going to ground. In that video he blows as soon as the BC goes to ground.

    It is interesting that only Marauder seems prepared to allow the ball to be moved to a point where play can continue in post #36,
    "If he can immediately place it or release it such that it can either be retrieved by the SH or played with the feet in the maul then "All of the above".

    All other responders seem to be saying (happy to be corrected if I have misinterpreted), that at the instant the BC gets to ground, the ball must be at a place where the SH can immediately play it. My question is "How does it get from point A to point B?" There has to be an action by the ball carrier.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: one man unplayable maul

    The Fat, NO & CJ with their AR's, TMOs, multi-camera angles, & citing officers can wait longer if they wish (and it wouldn't be the 1st time the elite guys allowed things different than the rest of the us ....crooked feeds, collapsing rucks etc ....)

    But outside camera'd rugby a much faster reaction time is prudent IMO.

    PS.... I can see problems if ' immediately' in law = 5s

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