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Thread: Interesting Tap Tactics

      
  1. #21

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by viper492 View Post
    You'd be surprised how many of these kids, despite having played for 5 or 6 years, still don't know how to take a tap properly but once you tell them at the first tap that it must leave their hands or be tapped (and move slightly) on the ground, you don't see another tap taken improperly all game
    viper - they are getting one over on you -- they DO know !

  2. #22

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by viper492 View Post
    Given the thoughts around the taking of the tap, I feel I might try something different tomorrow and actually ensure that they follow the laws on this one tomorrow - I'll include it very quickly in my PMB saying that I'll act on it from the start. I'll also have a ref coach there so we'll see what he has to say when I blow a scrum in the 13B standard game.:
    good for you. that's exactly what I do.

    But you have shifted the goal posts, are we talking about U14 schools game (OP) or U13B club friendly. Obviously if you make them younger and younger U12, U11 at some point the approach will be different.

    But for me when I ref U13 (A or B) it's always a league game and I'll always talk about it in the PMB and make sure both teams realise they have had the warning. Invariably the coaches listen to the PMB. Very often they will immediately reinforce my message on quick taps.

  3. #23
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    The reason that players don't take a tap correctly is two fold. Firstly it's not enforced by the coach in practice. I'm guilty of that. My bad. However the players know the difference so ,secondly, they will get it right if expected by the referee.

    I think most referees let it slide because they see the alternative is taking away the penalty, a major sanction, and giving the ops a scrum. I don't see the need for that. If the PK/FK is not taken correctly, or from the wrong place, then PEEP and "Take the kick correctly and/or at the correct place". The loss of advantage by giving the ops more time to retire and reorganize will be enough incentive to get it right next time.

    The rationale is, again, that a penalty restart requires a kick and a kick has not happened. If a player just picked up the ball and started running with it would you award a scrum to the ops? No, because it has to restart with a kick.

    Note that 21.2(a) does not have a sanction attached for taking from the improper place. Just do it again from the correct place, please.

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    The reason that players don't take a tap correctly is two fold. Firstly it's not enforced by the coach in practice. I'm guilty of that. My bad. However the players know the difference so ,secondly, they will get it right if expected by the referee.

    I think most referees let it slide because they see the alternative is taking away the penalty, a major sanction, and giving the ops a scrum. I don't see the need for that. If the PK/FK is not taken correctly, or from the wrong place, then PEEP and "Take the kick correctly and/or at the correct place". The loss of advantage by giving the ops more time to retire and reorganize will be enough incentive to get it right next time.

    The rationale is, again, that a penalty restart requires a kick and a kick has not happened. If a player just picked up the ball and started running with it would you award a scrum to the ops? No, because it has to restart with a kick.

    Note that 21.2(a) does not have a sanction attached for taking from the improper place. Just do it again from the correct place, please.
    I can understand your point on the extreamness of the turnover for something that seems relatively minor, But currently 21.4(d) does have sanction to apply, ' location' 21.2.(a) and 'how actioned' 21.4(d) arent comparable , refs dictate the mark location so some allowance for misunderstanding has to apply, whereas players solely dictate how the kick is executed independent of referee involvement.

  5. #25
    Rugby Club Member viper492's Avatar

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    good for you. that's exactly what I do.

    But you have shifted the goal posts, are we talking about U14 schools game (OP) or U13B club friendly. Obviously if you make them younger and younger U12, U11 at some point the approach will be different.

    But for me when I ref U13 (A or B) it's always a league game and I'll always talk about it in the PMB and make sure both teams realise they have had the warning. Invariably the coaches listen to the PMB. Very often they will immediately reinforce my message on quick taps.
    I'm not sure what you're referring to re: friendly vs schools... Perhaps differences between here and England?
    The game in OP was 14B (I forgot to mention that - apologies) and for us the school games are essentially friendlies until the players are in the first XV or 16A's where there is actually a proper competition - until then there isn't really anything spectacular to play for. The junior club rugby, at least, is much more serious and played competitively and at a higher standard than most of the schoolboy rugby. Having reffed a 13A school game yesterday I would have compared it to a 13B/C grade club game and same is to be said of a 14B level game.
    Last edited by viper492; 03-08-14 at 00:08.

  6. #26

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    I think most referees let it slide because they see the alternative is taking away the penalty, a major sanction, and giving the ops a scrum. I don't see the need for that. If the PK/FK is not taken correctly, or from the wrong place, then PEEP and "Take the kick correctly and/or at the correct place". The loss of advantage by giving the ops more time to retire and reorganize will be enough incentive to get it right next time. .
    Marauder I think this is a big mistake - -your job as a referee is to apply the Laws, regardless of whether you think the Law is fair or appropriate.
    In some scenarios the Law is ambiguous, and then we all make judgements according to the spirit of the game, but here the Law is perfectly clear - an incorrectly taken tap = scrum turnover, and (whether you agree with it or not) your job is to apply the Law

    Othewise, if we all ignore Laws we don't agree with, chaos ensues.

  7. #27

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by viper492 View Post
    I'm not sure what you're referring to re: friendly vs schools... Perhaps differences between here and England?
    The game in OP was 14B (I forgot to mention that - apologies) and for us the school games are essentially friendlies until the players are in the first XV or 16A's where there is actually a proper competition - until then there isn't really anything spectacular to play for. The junior club rugby, at least, is much more serious and played competitively and at a higher standard than most of the schoolboy rugby. Having reffed a 13A school game yesterday I would have compared it to a 13B/C grade club game and same is to be said of a 14B level game.
    in England a 'friendly' means a game that isn't part of a competition (a league or cup). A friendly is a fixture arranged between the two clubs (or schools) and played just for it's own sake.

    friendlies are generally slightly more relaxed - but not necessarily - they can really vary.

    At one extreme is a pre-season training game, which might be very ad hod - 4 x 20 minute sessions, squads of 25-30 players, rolling subs, coaches trying different combinations.

    At the other extreme is the annual derby game that you might traditionaly play with your biggest rival , which is as serious or competitive as any league game.

  8. #28
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    crossref, I am applying the Laws. You seem to be missing my point.

    A PK/FK requires a kick (or scrum option). A kick, as per definitions has not occurred so play has not started. So do it again. Same as if the player had simply picked up the ball and ran with it. Would you give a scrum turnover if that happened?

    As for referee making the mark. If FK/PK awarded at scrum and ball is in SHs hands and he taps and goes (correctly) would you play on if he took the tap on a line thru where the mark would be or would you call it back to make the mark. If he took the tap (correctly) but from 5/10m from the line of the mark would you call it back and award the turnover scrum? Incorrectly in my opinion.

    When the kick-off is taken 1/2m in front of the half way line do you call them back? "Materiality" is not in the definitions but we apply it. Get my drift?

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    crossref, I am applying the Laws. You seem to be missing my point.

    A PK/FK requires a kick (or scrum option). A kick, as per definitions has not occurred so play has not started. So do it again. Same as if the player had simply picked up the ball and ran with it. Would you give a scrum turnover if that happened?

    As for referee making the mark. If FK/PK awarded at scrum and ball is in SHs hands and he taps and goes (correctly) would you play on if he took the tap on a line thru where the mark would be or would you call it back to make the mark. If he took the tap (correctly) but from 5/10m from the line of the mark would you call it back and award the turnover scrum? Incorrectly in my opinion.

    When the kick-off is taken 1/2m in front of the half way line do you call them back? "Materiality" is not in the definitions but we apply it. Get my drift?
    OB already pointed you to the Law here --

    21.4 (d) A clear kick. The kicker must kick the ball a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark.
    [...]
    Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.

  10. #30
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    You are ducking the questions in my post.

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