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Thread: Interesting Tap Tactics

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    You are ducking the questions in my post.
    yes, but your questions are about different scenarios!

  2. #32
    Rugby Club Member viper492's Avatar

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    in England a 'friendly' means a game that isn't part of a competition (a league or cup). A friendly is a fixture arranged between the two clubs (or schools) and played just for it's own sake.

    friendlies are generally slightly more relaxed - but not necessarily - they can really vary.

    At one extreme is a pre-season training game, which might be very ad hod - 4 x 20 minute sessions, squads of 25-30 players, rolling subs, coaches trying different combinations.

    At the other extreme is the annual derby game that you might traditionaly play with your biggest rival , which is as serious or competitive as any league game.
    Ok - I knew what a friendly game was, just wasn't sure what you meant exactly when you used it in reference to the club game. Thank-you for the explanation though - tells me something about the game being slightly differently run in different places Essentially for us in Sydney all junior club games and most of the senior rugby is part of competition of some kind (or at least all the rugby I've ever been exposed to here is!) and most schoolboy games aren't necessarily part of a competition but are still played quite seriously as if they were any other competition match (or at least IMO would be considered a friendly - having played them before).

    Marauder - I'm with Crossref - it is our job to apply the laws (of course it is also our job to interpret the laws - with guidance from the various referee associations, the IRB etc.).

    Just my opinion to the ideas you put in - if a player picked up the ball and just ran with it (I'm assuming this is a player who, by his actions, has obviously heard and noticed the referee blowing his whistle) there could also now be at least one additional sanction that I can think of off the top of my head - FK for time wasting in addition to not taking the tap correctly.
    Regarding mark of the tap - there is no sanction listed in 21.2 for the team failing to take the penalty at the correct mark and therefore I would understand there can be no sanction for it except being made to take it again at the mark unless we want to make some new sanction exist. For a kick into touch, as long as it's within a half metre or so of the line of the mark, I'll be happy and the same applies for a tap - as long as it's behind the mark. To the part about taking the tap before a mark is given - The players must wait for a mark to be given to take the tap - unless I had stated otherwise in the PMB (e.g. take at last feet of scrum when scrum penalty if you want to take quickly)


    EDIT: This has moved a bit from the OP!
    Last edited by viper492; 03-08-14 at 13:08.

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    A PK/FK requires a kick (or scrum option). A kick, as per definitions has not occurred so play has not started. So do it again.
    Why? There is a specific sanction in the laws for an incorrect kick.
    Same as if the player had simply picked up the ball and ran with it. Would you give a scrum turnover if that happened?
    There is no justification at all for that. 10.4 (m) unless it really is a game where you ar coaching as much as refereeing.

    As for referee making the mark. If FK/PK awarded at scrum and ball is in SHs hands and he taps and goes (correctly) would you play on if he took the tap on a line thru where the mark would be or would you call it back to make the mark.
    The player is only required to wait for the referee to indicate he mark if the kick is being moved forward 10m.

    If he took the tap (correctly) but from 5/10m from the line of the mark would you call it back and award the turnover scrum?
    If it is a genuine misunderstanding as to where the mark is, call him back to the mark. Otherwise he is cheating.

    When the kick-off is taken 1/2m in front of the half way line do you call them back?
    Irrelevant.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    This really is simple...

    "Where" 21.2

    Get the location wrong, (ie outside the refs materiality tolerance of his mark ) & you get to have another go.

    "How" . 21.3
    This prescribes how a PK or FK is executed/taken, fail this ( including running off with the ball,or bouncing it on your head/chin/thigh/arm/nose/chest , or passing it to a teammate) and you've gifted possession to your opponents via a scrum feed. & this is a 'schoolboy error' for sure. Law is unyielding on this.

    Marauders claim that the absence of a 'technically compliant kick' negates a restart having taken place, doesnt make much sense when viewed against explicit laws.

    Restart kick tolerances under L13 are differently sanctioned.

  5. #35
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    yes, but your questions are about different scenarios!
    Yes, indeed they are. So?

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    crossref, I am applying the Laws. You seem to be missing my point.

    A PK/FK requires a kick (or scrum option). A kick, as per definitions has not occurred so play has not started. So do it again? ...
    Marauder; have you watched the video that the IRB have chosen to use to illustrate Law 21.4(d)?

  7. #37

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    A very elaborate move by U14 is (in my opinion) mostly for the purpose of making the coaches look clever.
    and quite often if the penalty tap move they had when they played 20 years earlier.

    I'd go out on a limb here and say that in fact probably u13 and u14 (as played in England anyway) are possibly the "only" age groups you will see this. younger Ags don;t have the (generically!) base skills to operate it and play on such a reduced pitch that basic defense is a case of standing still until an opponent falls over you. Older AGs can kick to touch and gain ground.

    didds

  8. #38
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLev View Post
    Marauder; have you watched the video that the IRB have chosen to use to illustrate Law 21.4(d)?
    No, can you give me a link? Searching on dial-up is too painful.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    Crossref, I think we end up at the same place through different paths.

    You get compliance by taking away the penalty and giving the ops a scrum.

    I'll get the same compliance by not accepting an incorrect kick, or from the wrong place. I'm not prepared to go from a penalty for foul play to a scrum for the foul play perpetrators because of a minor technical offence that is rarely called by other refs.

    I do think my approach is colored by refereeing very inexperienced players at HS or younger.

  10. #40

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    Default Re: Interesting Tap Tactics

    If it's a "minor" offence, it should be easy to accomplish - there's no excuse for stuffing it up.

    They've been given a pressure free play at the ball. If they can't get it right, they don't deserve to retain possession
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
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    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

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