Getting more people into become referees

[Browner]

Good God no! Disaster.

If you pay people to referee, you introduce the idea of value for money.

Does a young referee provide value for his money compared to a 10-year veteran? If not, he can be abused, complained to, moaned at and made to feel miserable. He'll then decide that the money isn't worth the hassle and disappear to a leisure pursuit that is actually enjoyable.

You can still decide its not worth it as a volunteer, more reasons to.

Pro rugby has already let the complain/moan cat out of the bag, scaled reward commensurate with operating level is the way forward.

The notion that both clubs shouldn't contribute for the services officials is outdated and proliferated by those who espouse the volunteer workforce 'great con' if grassroots players all paid £1 each ( the price of a packet of crisps in most pubs) then none of them would leave the sport citing cost.

The wealthy volunteer minded refs could donate their fee into a pot called "Ref PR dept" to be used to promote/recruit/train referees, or give it back to the clubs that respect and host them best, if they wish.

The mega millions involved in rugby require a mindset change towards grassroots officiating IMO.

[SimonSmith]

We - and I think most US societies - pay a fee plus mileage. If we didn't, we'd be screwed. High School basketball referees can pocket a few hundred $$ in a weekend; soccer referees get paid. In fact, most every referee in any sport over here I can think of gets paid.

[leaguerefaus]

We - and I think most US societies - pay a fee plus mileage. If we didn't, we'd be screwed. High School basketball referees can pocket a few hundred $$ in a weekend; soccer referees get paid. In fact, most every referee in any sport over here I can think of gets paid.

Yes I'm not sure how English rugby has gotten away with this bollocks for so long!

League refs are paid quite decently where I am, but it's one of those things - if people don't enjoy it, they don't stay around long.
The money certainly helps ensure a fair few players give it a go and see if it's their thing.

Moreover, I certainly expect to get paid, as I take time out of my day and put in a substantial amount of effort. Yes I enjoy refereeing very much, but that doesn't mean I should have to get nothing for it. This Sunday I have three games, a 13s, and two 15s. The $125 I will receive seems fair for how buggered I'm going to be when I leave the ground!

On another note, when you start refereeing here, you choose your local club and only do u6s-12s. When you're ready to move up, usually after two years, you start traveling around a bit and doing 13s and up.

[ddjamo]

why young?

personally, I would take a seasoned vet from a high level that has no aspirations of making any type of grade - but just wants to be a good referee and to enjoy his post playing years, stay fit and do a derby or two a year as his season highlight. say a 38 year old fly half. for those of us that are involved in the admin side, this would be one heck of a find - right? he has 20-30 years of experience, life skills, etc, etc. I would expect a guy like that to be in the real mix very quickly and be handy with most of what I could throw at him within 2 years. and if he has captain experience...we are really moving along...a 21 year old has very little of the above or the none of it.

is it our job to find young refs for our national panels to pull away? I don't think so. I think that's where we are all going wrong. a high % these kids that are hyper promoted do not make it. and where do they go once they don't become the next sir nige? they quit. the 40 year old vet ref that is fit and is confident will make it. the 40 year old experienced referee probably has friends that are fit, have a lot of experience and may even want to get involved. the 21 year old has very few friends that want to referee.

why do we take on the goals of the national office? how about take care of our backyard and if a young guy comes along - good for him?

the time I ran the line for mcmenemy I asked him about 3 young scot refs and how they were progressing. all of them had quit once their progression had stopped.

think about it...we are pushed to find young refs for the slim chance of longevity...someone prove me wrong and tell me it's working. I double dog dare you!

[ctrainor]

Whilst not 100% comfortable with paying refs it could encourage more but where I live it hasn't helped the RL guys, they are as short as we are. I have to be honest refereeing costs me money but more importantly time. The argument " I played rugby when you married me" wears a bit thin when you worked all week and then are away all day Saturday. At least when you play you are at home alternate weeks. Real financial compensation would help. No qualified reference should have to buy there own kit

[menace]

I'm in agreement with most opinions here.

Especially ddjamo, we are finding that we invest a lot of time and effort in the young ones only to find that career and family calls and they leave so it seems the ROI is very low. Yet there are still many older stalwarts here that keep putting in year after year but are denied development opportunities because well, because they're 'old'. If you're new and older/mature you're considered to be just making up the numbers. I think it stinks. But it is what it is. But we need the young ones to be there, even for those that don't or won't make it to the top, we need the fillers too. However we now are dealing with gen-y, and their motives are not driven by sense of social and community morals, unlike the older baby boomers and gen-x amongst us. Gen-y are driven by what they can gain out of it, not what they will lose from it. Therefore money talks and bullsh!t walks. We may not like it, but you have to move with the times.

Therefore I agree with browner, crossref and leagie that all refs need to be 'compensated' for their time and efforts. My association is currently in a battle to have referees paid (it seems we are the last ones in Oz too!). We are battling against codes such as soccer and league that pay all their refs quite well. Our focus for payment is more to subsidise costs rather than payment for time and the debate and negotiations have now spanned 14 months. It has been a hard battle especially when dealing with very old administrators set in their ways and still dreaming of the 60/70s amateur rugby era and so we are still some way off getting a final agreement.

[Toby Warren]

For me it's not the money but the time that causes the issue. My wife and I both work and have a young son, getting the balance right between my hobby and family is always a tough line to tread.

Money doesn't fix that issue but if there was payment it might help - but the tax rates would mean many people get less than half the fee involved so the number would need to be reasonable.

[TheBFG]

back at the start of this thread think it was Dixie that said "if we pay refs they become accountable" or something like that and there is the problem I think. Going back a number of years wendyball refs weren't paid (at top levels) just given "expenses" then they became fulltime refs as their "job" and suddenly they're getting a slagging from most coaches in the post match interviews! If a player has a bad game he gets a roasting in the press, so why not the ref?

We all go out to do our best, but be handing over a little brown envelope at the end of the game suddenly makes it a different issue.

As it is now, we get our expense via the society through (WTR) the on-line booking system, no interaction with the clubs no issues over £'s, it's easy and causes no problems. I have never reffed for money and never will, that said if it changes in my "lifetime" I guess i'll have to review it

Oh yes and we get free kit! (but that's due to a very generous sponsor!)

[Browner]

Here is a honest summary of my rugby refereeing experience.

1976 - 2004 (u12 - u39 as a player ). Never did anyone discuss, coerce, recruit , or suggest refereeing to me.

2004 - Son joins U6's , Browner assists U7 coach & starts refereeing U7 due to 'age group need'

2004 * complete mini/midi ref course ( to be covered by insurance u7-u11) .
2005 * complete Entry Level 1 / 2 was given my 1st Law Book & acme thunderer.
* volunteer to ref local schools and older age grades within own club + fill in when senior sides left unreffed
* Join local society , purchased own society shorts/shirt/socks etc

Regular assessments.

[SimonSmith]

I agree with Jamo.

The obsession is getting the next National Panel or International referee, rather than building and maintaining a strong body of referees who will be in it for the medium to long term.

There are too many examples that can be cited, over here, of the next Bright Young Thing who all of a sudden disappears. In the meantime other referees who don't fit that demographic profile are denied the stretch opportunities. It's at the absurd point that referees with but 6 matches under their belts are invited to High Potential camps, not because they're great referees-in-waiting, but because they can run a high bleep number.

Referees will referee because they want to. Money, or kit, won't be the key factors. They can help influence the stay/go decision, but if a referee decides to quit, I doubt if $50 a game will keep him/her. Different referees will find a different motivation to do it. Some like to give back to the game; some like the challenge; some because it's the only way of staying in touch with the game; still others simply because they enjoy the 80 minutes, and nothing more than that. Referee bodies have got to find those people and show them that they can enjoy refereeing. As a value proposition, and knowing the millennials as I do through work, there isn't much that's compelling for youngsters, especially in the USA.

I started playing when I was 9, and kept going until 22/23. I spent a year in France playing rugby before University. I had to stop playing through injury, so I took up refereeing, and I've stuck with it, because on balance I get more positive than negative from it; it also keeps me off the streets on a Saturday. But it's a lonely grind. I see the other referees if there's a tournament or an AGM. And that's it. There are very few kids I know who are going to sign up for it, for the long term. Throw in the fact that one of the defining characteristics of that demographic is the need for ongoing positive feedback, not something that you get every Saturday... You have a problem.

Here's how seriously USA Rugby is taking it. Instead of doubling down on referee recruitment and development, they've instead been tasked with owning USA Wheelchair Rugby.