Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 17

Thread: Handling in a Ruck?

      
  1. #1
    Banned

    Soc/Assoc
    n/a
    Grade
    < player
    Join Date
    20 Jan 12
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks (Received)
    19
    Likes (Received)
    251

    Default Handling in a Ruck?

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I9eViktuWyQ

    Maul, dropped ball onto ground, ruck now exists , ball picked up by ruck participant ........ Why not a PK for handling in ruck ?

  2. #2

    Referees in Australia
    The Fat's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    FNCRRA
    Grade
    L1 Ref & L2 AR
    Join Date
    15 Jul 10
    Posts
    4,176
    Thanks (Received)
    50
    Likes (Received)
    437

    Default Re: Handling in a Ruck?

    Agree.
    Nothing accidental about that. Guy picking up tried to recreate the maul
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  3. #3

    Referees in Canada
    chrismtl's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    AARQ
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    14 Sep 13
    Posts
    202
    Thanks (Received)
    9
    Likes (Received)
    26

    Default Re: Handling in a Ruck?

    To me it followed the definition of a successful end to a maul. The maul is formed, and then the ball hits the ground.

    17.5 Successful end to a maul
    A maul ends successfully when :

    • the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul
    • the ball is on the ground
    • the ball is on or over the goal line.




    The player at the back picked it up and essentially was running into his own man already; accidental offside, or if the ref sees fit, obstruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Agree.
    Nothing accidental about that. Guy picking up tried to recreate the maul
    If you think it was intentional, then it should be an obstruction penalty as the ball was not in a ruck, it was in open play.

  4. #4
    Rugby Club Member viper492's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    SNRRA
    Grade
    L1
    Join Date
    11 May 14
    Posts
    39
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default Re: Handling in a Ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Browner View Post
    Why not a PK for handling in ruck ?
    Maul formed, ball lost to ground, last man in the former maul, now ruck, picks it up.

    If it wasn't the last man in this now ruck, I'd go penalty for hands.

    In this case I would go for PK for obstruction as he has picked up the ball and has just gone straight back into the back of the ruck - at Super Rugby level, they know they can't do this and it's definitely not unintentional; therefore not accidental offside.

  5. #5

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    LSRFUR
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    16,539
    Thanks (Received)
    126
    Likes (Received)
    1599

    Default Re: Handling in a Ruck?

    when the ball was dropped, and didn't come out immediately, it's an unsuccessful end to a maul. So a turnover

  6. #6

    Referees in Australia
    The Fat's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    FNCRRA
    Grade
    L1 Ref & L2 AR
    Join Date
    15 Jul 10
    Posts
    4,176
    Thanks (Received)
    50
    Likes (Received)
    437

    Default Re: Handling in a Ruck?

    Two interesting opinions there.

    1) From Chrismtl
    "If you think it was intentional, then it should be an obstruction penalty as the ball was not in a ruck, it was in open play".

    and

    2) From crossref
    "when the ball was dropped, and didn't come out immediately, it's an unsuccessful end to a maul. So a turnover"


    Chrismtl and crossref respectively, please consider the following.

    Extract from Law Clarification 2 - 2011:
    There is a further variable to be taken into account when the ball goes to ground at a collapsed maul and there are players from both sides on their feet bound over the ball so that Law 16 – Ruck becomes applicable.

    and

    17.5 Successful end to a maul
    A maul ends successfully when :

    the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul
    the ball is on the ground
    the ball is on or over the goal line.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  7. #7
    Rugby Club Member viper492's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    SNRRA
    Grade
    L1
    Join Date
    11 May 14
    Posts
    39
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default Re: Handling in a Ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Extract from Law Clarification 2 - 2011:
    There is a further variable to be taken into account when the ball goes to ground at a collapsed maul and there are players from both sides on their feet bound over the ball so that Law 16 – Ruck becomes applicable.
    17.5 Successful end to a maul

    the ball is on the ground
    We agree that the maul is successfully over, therefore the Law Clarification is irrelevant because we have reached the conclusion that the maul is not collapsed.

    The question is: at what point is the ruck formed?

    16.1 FORMING A RUCK
    (a) Where can a ruck take place. A ruck can take place only in the field of play.
    (b) How can a ruck form. Players are on their feet. At least one player must be in physical
    contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground. If the ball is off the ground for
    any reason, the ruck is not formed.


    This suggests to me that the ruck is formed the immediately when that maul become over - am I missing something???
    Last edited by viper492; 05-08-14 at 09:08. Reason: Formatting

  8. #8

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    9,436
    Thanks (Received)
    56
    Likes (Received)
    864

    Default Re: Handling in a Ruck?

    in the circumstances desceribed that would seem to be the only logical conculsion.

    I suppose there is a sort of "no state" while ball is lost from the grasp before it hits the ground... but that is likely milli seconds

    didds

  9. #9
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    14 Jul 10
    Posts
    3,183
    Thanks (Received)
    30
    Likes (Received)
    305

    Default Re: Handling in a Ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    when the ball was dropped, and didn't come out immediately, it's an unsuccessful end to a maul. So a turnover
    You are mixing your metaphors. 17.5: ball on the ground = successful end to maul. No requirement for "immediately available." That's a requirement if the BC in a maul goes to ground.

    Gentlemen, we have a ruck and ruck law applies.

    Did player disengage before picking up ball?
    No? Then handling in ruck.
    Yes? Play on ... Oooops, ran into own player? Unintentional offsides or obstruction.
    Last edited by ChrisR; 05-08-14 at 10:08.

  10. #10

    Referees in Australia
    The Fat's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    FNCRRA
    Grade
    L1 Ref & L2 AR
    Join Date
    15 Jul 10
    Posts
    4,176
    Thanks (Received)
    50
    Likes (Received)
    437

    Default Re: Handling in a Ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by viper492 View Post
    We agree that the maul is successfully over, therefore the Law Clarification is irrelevant because we have reached the conclusion that the maul is not collapsed.
    Perhaps I should have gone into more detail.
    I posted the extract from Clarification 2-2011 to show that when the ball is on the ground and there are still players on their feet and bound over it, we transition from maul to ruck. The reference to a collapsed maul was specific to the question asked by the ARU back in 2011 and not the OP of this thread.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •