Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 74

Thread: When is the ball out of a ruck?

      
  1. #41

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    16,965
    Thanks (Received)
    131
    Likes (Received)
    1626

    Default

    Well, this thiead certainly illustrates OB point : there are as many answers to this question as there are referees.

    That's probably why the irb issued some guidance to clear it up, under the unfortunate impression that referees would listen and apply it

  2. #42

    Advises in England
    OB..'s Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Glos & District
    Grade
    Adviser (grass roots)
    Join Date
    07 Oct 04
    Posts
    22,482
    Thanks (Received)
    108
    Likes (Received)
    1516

    Default Re: When is the ball out of a ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Well, this thiead certainly illustrates OB point : there are as many answers to this question as there are referees.
    If not more!

    After the meeting I had a lively conversation with one of our senior referees, who would answer "Ask me and I will tell you. And I won't lie!" I tried to get the point across that he was making the players guess at his criteria, but I failed.

    In practice I agree it rarely becomes a problem, but if we could get all our referees to say the same thing, players would stop asking.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  3. #43

    Referees in Australia
    The Fat's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    FNCRRA
    Grade
    L1 Ref & L2 AR
    Join Date
    15 Jul 10
    Posts
    4,201
    Thanks (Received)
    51
    Likes (Received)
    444

    Default Re: When is the ball out of a ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Well, this thiead certainly illustrates OB point : there are as many answers to this question as there are referees.

    That's probably why the irb issued some guidance to clear it up, under the unfortunate impression that referees would listen and apply it
    Referee's probably would have if the IRB memo was not at odds with the Law
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  4. #44
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    London
    Grade
    Level 9
    Join Date
    20 Sep 18
    Posts
    5
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default Re: When is the ball out of a ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    Yesterday's training session was a panel-led discussion on what referees, players, coaches and assessors expect of each other.

    One of the thinbgs that got mentioned several times was consistency, though we found it useful to distinguish "consistency" (by a referee during a game) and "uniformity" (all refeees across all games).

    To give the discussion a specific focus, I said that at almost every PMB someone asks "When is the ball out of a ruck?". I hear almost as many answers as there are refeees, and it seemed to me a good exemple of where society training could produce uniformity, at least in our area.

    I know this subject has come up before, but I thought it would be useful to collect a wide rnage of approaches from the assembled group of experts.

    16.6 A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.

    For me that means the ball has to be clear of the players in the ruck. However there is a rider: by convention the scrum half is allowed to use his hands to clear the ball from the ruck, and he may have difficulty pulling it out from under a player. I would allow him to do that provided he lifts the ball clear of the ruck as soon as he can. If he delays with his hands on the ball when he could lift it out, he is technically handling in the ruck.

    I recommend saying the first bit, but making the scrum half aware of the rider if he starts to take liberties.

    Over to you.
    In my pre-match briefing to all players I define the ball leaving the ruck as when it has nothing vertically above it, which works very well. I tell the players I won't be verbally confirming this for them & not to ask me, either.

    Likewise, I define the end of a scrum when there's nothing vertically above the ball.

    These criteria are so simple that everyone can understand them and act on them. So, win-win.

  5. #45

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    16,965
    Thanks (Received)
    131
    Likes (Received)
    1626

    Default Re: When is the ball out of a ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Danes View Post
    In my pre-match briefing to all players I define the ball leaving the ruck as when it has nothing vertically above it, which works very well. I tell the players I won't be verbally confirming this for them & not to ask me, either.

    Likewise, I define the end of a scrum when there's nothing vertically above the ball.

    These criteria are so simple that everyone can understand them and act on them. So, win-win.
    but they are different from just about every other ref...

  6. #46

    Advises in England
    OB..'s Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Glos & District
    Grade
    Adviser (grass roots)
    Join Date
    07 Oct 04
    Posts
    22,482
    Thanks (Received)
    108
    Likes (Received)
    1516

    Default Re: When is the ball out of a ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Danes View Post
    In my pre-match briefing to all players I define the ball leaving the ruck as when it has nothing vertically above it, which works very well. I tell the players I won't be verbally confirming this for them & not to ask me, either.

    Likewise, I define the end of a scrum when there's nothing vertically above the ball.
    I think that is wrong. If the ball is between the #8's feet at a scrum, it is not out. That has to be the case or a pushover try would be almost impossible.

    Why do you want players to guess if the ball is out?

    These criteria are so simple that everyone can understand them and act on them. So, win-win.
    It requires a view from above, which most players do not have.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  7. #47

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    16,965
    Thanks (Received)
    131
    Likes (Received)
    1626

    Default Re: When is the ball out of a ruck?

    Of course, having said this, the current guidance (2018) from World Rugby has moved towards Mr Danes' interpretation : viz

    if the ball is clearly exposed, or has emerged from the ruck, it is deemed over


    clearly exposed is a bit like : nothing vertically over it.

    https://www.londonrugby.com/training...18-focus-areas

  8. #48

    Referees in England
    Phil E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Staffordshire and Royal Navy
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    22 Jan 08
    Posts
    14,786
    Thanks (Received)
    135
    Likes (Received)
    1192
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: When is the ball out of a ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Of course, having said this, the current guidance (2018) from World Rugby has moved towards Mr Danes' interpretation : viz

    if the ball is clearly exposed, or has emerged from the ruck, it is deemed over


    clearly exposed is a bit like : nothing vertically over it.

    https://www.londonrugby.com/training...18-focus-areas
    It would be helpful if you quoted the complete guidance and didn’t just cherry pick to suit your argument.

    Follow my Award Winning blog The Rugby Ref


  9. #49

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    16,965
    Thanks (Received)
    131
    Likes (Received)
    1626

    Default Re: When is the ball out of a ruck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    It would be helpful if you quoted the complete guidance and didn’t just cherry pick to suit your argument.
    hmm - I'm not even sure what you are getting at -- you can be very cryptic sometimes, Phil

    But here you go


    Dead Ruck
    If the ball is clearly exposed or has emerged from the ruck, it is deemed over so therefore the ball can be played. If not the principle of once a ruck always a ruck applies. However the scrum half cannot be tackled without the ball


    to me, it's quite an opaque paragraph - so I'm intrigued to know what you are getting at?

  10. #50
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    Cardiff Society of Welsh Rugby Union Referees
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    05 Jan 18
    Posts
    1,263
    Thanks (Received)
    17
    Likes (Received)
    258

    Default Re: When is the ball out of a ruck?

    It is a mess.

    Dead Ruck
    If the ball is clearly exposed OR has emerged from the ruck, it is deemed over so therefore the ball can be played. If not the principle of once a ruck always a ruck applies. However the scrum half cannot be tackled without the ball


    So if it is ion the ruck but the old seagul can crap on it it is out. OR it is out if it is out!

    Are we expected t osay a ball that is between the legs of a player in a ruck is out. BUT in a scrum we have OB's words "If the ball is between the #8's feet at a scrum, it is not out. That has to be the case or a pushover try would be almost impossible."

    Under previous guidence we had "lifted clear" Which for one referee was an inch and another 6 inches and another a foot.

    Where is the consistency we all crave?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •