Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 30

Thread: Open play or ruck rules?

      
  1. #1

    Referees in Ireland
    FightOrFlight's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Leinster Branch
    Grade
    IRFU Level 2
    Join Date
    09 Dec 13
    Posts
    175
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    12

    Default Open play or ruck rules?

    Red v Blue...poor enough standard.

    Red attacking...tackle made by blue...tackler rolls away and lies on their side...red players come over and guard but no blue player engages....blue player comes around the side and picks the ball from the red side and gets PKed.....an older ref who was there seemed to think that as there was no ruck the blue player was entitled to pick it out from the red side and that it was open play....i had to have a think but I can see the reasoning in a way

    Thoughts?
    Award the try under 22.4(g) and put on your riot gear!

  2. #2

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    CUDRRS
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    07 Feb 09
    Posts
    401
    Thanks (Received)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    35

    Default Re: Open play or ruck rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by FightOrFlight View Post
    Red v Blue...poor enough standard.

    Red attacking...tackle made by blue...tackler rolls away and lies on their side...red players come over and guard but no blue player engages....blue player comes around the side and picks the ball from the red side and gets PKed.....an older ref who was there seemed to think that as there was no ruck the blue player was entitled to pick it out from the red side and that it was open play....i had to have a think but I can see the reasoning in a way

    Thoughts?
    Did he go through the gate at the tackle? If no, then penalty. The red players guarding the ball are technically obstructing, but it's an obstruction we all live with to be able to have a game.
    Doucement le matin, pas trop vite le soir!

  3. #3
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    17 Oct 11
    Posts
    2,170
    Thanks (Received)
    17
    Likes (Received)
    227

    Default Re: Open play or ruck rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuartg View Post
    Did he go through the gate at the tackle? If no, then penalty. The red players guarding the ball are technically obstructing, but it's an obstruction we all live with to be able to have a game.
    Is it still a tackle? The ball has been placed, all players involved in the tackle are clear of the ball, so why does tackle law still apply?

    As for the obstruction surely this (if it is still a tackle) is clearly material and should be penalised before thinking about penalising the player who is forced by the obstruction to go around, rather than through, the gate to get to the ball?

    If a Blue player had engaged to form a ruck, the ball would have to be called out and anyone could have come to get it.

  4. #4
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Level 3
    Join Date
    03 Sep 14
    Posts
    3,330
    Thanks (Received)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    507

    Default Re: Open play or ruck rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuartg View Post
    Did he go through the gate at the tackle? If no, then penalty. The red players guarding the ball are technically obstructing, but it's an obstruction we all live with to be able to have a game.
    This bit, in the OP, suggests he did not come through the gate

    Quote Originally Posted by FightOrFlight
    ...blue player comes around the side and picks the ball from the red side
    The ball doe not appear to have left the tackle area so he's illegal. Yet the Red players have come over to guard.

    Poor standard: Blow scum attacking ball. Warn Red not to obstruct and Blue not to come around "you may not get away with it next time".

    Better standard: Blow Red for Obstruction. They will know what they are doing.

  5. #5

    Referees in England
    Phil E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Staffordshire and Royal Navy
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    22 Jan 08
    Posts
    15,000
    Thanks (Received)
    177
    Likes (Received)
    1382
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Open play or ruck rules?

    Was this blue player who played the ball the original tackler, or an "other player".

    The ball is still in the tackle area, so it's still a tackle situation.
    If he was the tackler he is legal to play the ball from any angle.
    If he was an "other player" he must come through the gate.

    Follow my Award Winning blog The Rugby Ref


  6. #6
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Level 3
    Join Date
    03 Sep 14
    Posts
    3,330
    Thanks (Received)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    507

    Default Re: Open play or ruck rules?

    THe OP says the tackler "lies on their side". So I'd say it was not the tackler.

  7. #7

    Referees in Ireland
    FightOrFlight's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Leinster Branch
    Grade
    IRFU Level 2
    Join Date
    09 Dec 13
    Posts
    175
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    12

    Default Re: Open play or ruck rules?

    Player playing the ball was not the tackler....he came from the blue side around behind the red "guards" and took the ball out.

    I originally had the gate idea however I have never seen this issue transpire quite as blatantly as it did. At any sort of decent standard red guard would pick and carry the ball straight on as there are no blue players to oppose him.

    What kind of blurs it in my mind is the fact the red ball carrier had placed it back so it is just inside the back foot of one of the guards...there is no ruck so the ball is neither in nor out of a ruck...it is on the ground....surely ball on the ground in open play anyone can pick it up....it just so happens 2 red players were standing over it and chose not to...so blue did.

    If red was tackled and threw the ball back a blue player could play it and not be offside. If red was tackled and placed the ball on the ground and a blue player picked it up they would not be offside....really for me it is the same scenario here.
    Award the try under 22.4(g) and put on your riot gear!

  8. #8

    Advises in England
    OB..'s Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Glos & District
    Grade
    Adviser (grass roots)
    Join Date
    07 Oct 04
    Posts
    22,684
    Thanks (Received)
    129
    Likes (Received)
    1641

    Default Re: Open play or ruck rules?

    This is a gap in the laws that would be picked up by having a matrix of transitions betweeen phases. Law 15 does not say when a tackle ends, so that must leave us free to use our judgement.

    This is either a coached technique, or they just don't know what to do when the opponents do not contest. I suggest they are obstructing - that seem equitable because otherwise there is no point in them being there. Technically they prevent a ruck forming because an opponent cannot be over the ball when making contact.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  9. #9

    Referees in Wales
    Taff's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Llanelli District
    Grade
    WRU Level 2
    Join Date
    23 Aug 09
    Posts
    6,936
    Thanks (Received)
    34
    Likes (Received)
    344

    Default Re: Open play or ruck rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by FightOrFlight View Post
    ... What kind of blurs it in my mind is the fact the red ball carrier had placed it back so it is just inside the back foot of one of the guards...
    We kicked this one about a few weeks ago.

    I still maintain that if the ball is within 1m of the centre of the tackle it is still in the "tackle area" ie the gate still applies.

  10. #10

    Referees in Ireland
    FightOrFlight's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Leinster Branch
    Grade
    IRFU Level 2
    Join Date
    09 Dec 13
    Posts
    175
    Thanks (Received)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    12

    Default Re: Open play or ruck rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    We kicked this one about a few weeks ago.

    I still maintain that if the ball is within 1m of the centre of the tackle it is still in the "tackle area" ie the gate still applies.
    But like OB says it's a gap in law.

    If a player is tackled and drops the ball backwards say and it stops within a metre of him and a player coming back wishes to play it are we really saying that they must run around and come back again before doing so even if there is nobody else close. The laws of offside on open play suggest not and there is nothing in law to help. As far as the stated laws say unless there is a ruck if the ball is on the ground it's free to play.

    Like I said however at any level where players will challenge you on law my scenario would not be an issue as I imagine one of the guards would scoop it up and charge on as there is nobody "posting" the ruck to stop him.
    Award the try under 22.4(g) and put on your riot gear!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •