Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 97

Thread: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

      
  1. #11
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    14 Jul 10
    Posts
    3,118
    Thanks (Received)
    27
    Likes (Received)
    296

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    Have not seen the incident, going by OP description. If both are focused on the ball why then a need for a YC? If neither jump and they collide would you YC both? If both jump and collide but one comes off second best does the other get binned?

    Seems likje one guy got a YC for something he did not do (jump) or something the other guy did (jump). I agree with menace, if they are both seeking to catch it's a 'rugby incident'.

  2. #12

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    LSRFUR
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    14,711
    Thanks (Received)
    100
    Likes (Received)
    1368

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    I agree the Sale player was not really intent on hurting the other player, but we referee on actions not intent.

    .
    I don't know why you say that - - we referee on intent all the the time.

    examples : many offences are defined by the players intention
    - knock on or accidental throw forward = scrum, deliberate knock on or throw forward = PK.
    - accidental obstructions = accidental offside = scrum, deliberate obstruction = PK
    - accidental maul collapse = turnover and win the ball, deliberate collapse = PK aganst you
    - accidentally throw ball into touch = lineout, deliberately do it = PK
    etc

    And for foul play also we routinely consider intention. A knee can catch a head accidentally or deliberately, one is play-on, the other is a RC. etc

  3. #13

    Referees in England
    Phil E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Staffordshire and Royal Navy
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    22 Jan 08
    Posts
    14,465
    Thanks (Received)
    109
    Likes (Received)
    967
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I don't know why you say that - - we referee on intent all the the time.

    And for foul play also we routinely consider intention. A knee can catch a head accidentally or deliberately, one is play-on, the other is a RC. etc

    If you can read peoples minds perhaps you should be on the stage? I can't so I will stick with facts.

    This IRB memo is somewhat specific to high tackles, but the final statement is clear and unequivocal.

    Memorandum

    The specific provisions of Law 10.4(e) in relation to High Tackles are as follows:

    -SNIP-

    Referees and Citing Commissioners should not make their decisions based on what they consider was the intention of the offending player. Their decision should be based on an objective assessment (as per Law 10.4(e)) of the overall circumstances of the tackle.

    Follow my Award Winning blog The Rugby Ref


  4. #14

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    LSRFUR
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    14,711
    Thanks (Received)
    100
    Likes (Received)
    1368

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    If you can read peoples minds perhaps you should be on the stage? I can't so I will stick with facts.
    so have you never penalised a deliberate knock on?
    have never called accidental offside?

    Agreed on high tackles, there is a memo for those not to look for intent (and also for tip tackles). But we are not discussing either, we were discussing players leaping for the ball.

    There's no memo on in-the-air collisions that tells us they are special instances where we disregard intent, so I think they are just the same as 99% of all injuries/collisions -- a consideration of intent is vital. it's not mind reading just a routine judgement.
    Last edited by crossref; 11-11-14 at 14:11.

  5. #15

    Referees in England
    Phil E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Staffordshire and Royal Navy
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    22 Jan 08
    Posts
    14,465
    Thanks (Received)
    109
    Likes (Received)
    967
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    so have you never penalised a deliberate knock on?
    have never called accidental offside?

    Agreed on high tackles, there is a memo for those not to look for intent (and also for tip tackles). But we are not discussing either, we were discussing players leaping for the ball.

    There's no memo on in-the-air collisions that tells us they are special instances where we disregard intent, so I think they are just the same as 99% of all injuries/collisions -- a consideration of intent is vital. it's not mind reading just a routine judgement.

    Deciding what someone had in their head to do, is mind reading.

    Deciding on a knock on or an accidental offside is based on facts and experience. Where was their hand pointing, what movement was involved, was there an attempt to catch, or merely to bat away, etc. etc.

    If you run into the back of your own player, its accidental offside. It makes no difference if you intended to do it or not.


    I wonder if you can guess my intentions?

    Follow my Award Winning blog The Rugby Ref


  6. #16

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    LSRFUR
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    14,711
    Thanks (Received)
    100
    Likes (Received)
    1368

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    Deciding what someone had in their head to do, is mind reading.

    Deciding on a knock on or an accidental offside is based on facts and experience. Where was their hand pointing, what movement was involved, was there an attempt to catch, or merely to bat away, etc. etc.
    exactly ... and when you make a judgement as to what they were attempting to do, you are forming a judgement about their intention.

    It's no big deal, we do it all the time.

  7. #17

    Referees in England
    Phil E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Staffordshire and Royal Navy
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    22 Jan 08
    Posts
    14,465
    Thanks (Received)
    109
    Likes (Received)
    967
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    exactly ... and when you make a judgement as to what they were attempting to do, you are forming a judgement about their intention.
    No i'm not. I am forming a judgement based on their actions. I have no idea what their intention was.

    Follow my Award Winning blog The Rugby Ref


  8. #18

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    LSRFUR
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    14,711
    Thanks (Received)
    100
    Likes (Received)
    1368

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    Here's some Laws that require you form a judgement about a player's intention

    Law 17: Maul
    17.2 Joining a maul
    A player must not intentionally collapse a maul. This is dangerous play.

    Law 12: Knock-on or Throw forward
    12.1 The outcome of a knock-on or throw forward
    Unintentional knock-on or throw forward.

    Variations: Under 19: Law 20: Scrum
    20.9 Scrum - general restrictions
    A player must not intentionally keep the ball in the scrum once the player’s team has heeled the ball and controls it at the base of the scrum.

    Variations: Under 19: Law 20: Scrum
    20.11 Scrum wheeled
    A team must not intentionally wheel a scrum.

    Variations: Seven-a-side: Law 20: Scrum
    20.8 Front-row players
    A front-row player must not intentionally kick the ball out of the tunnel or out of the scrum in the direction of the opponent’s goal line.

    Law 16: Ruck
    16.3 Rucking
    A player must not intentionally fall or kneel in a ruck. This is dangerous play.

    Law 10: Foul Play
    10.1 Obstruction
    A player must not intentionally move or stand in front of a team-mate carrying the ball thereby preventing opponents from tackling the current ball carrier or the opportunity to tackle potential ball carriers when they gain possession.

    Law 10: Foul Play
    10.4 Dangerous play and misconduct
    Front row players must not intentionally lift opponents off their feet or force them upwards out of the scrum.

    Law 11: Offside and Onside in General Play
    11.1 Offside in general play
    A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.

    Law 11: Offside and Onside in General Play
    11.6 Accidental offside
    When a player hands the ball to a team-mate in front of the first player, the receiver is offside. Unless the receiver is considered to be intentionally offside (in which case a penalty kick is awarded), the receiver is accidentally offside and a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

    Law 14: Ball on the Ground - No Tackle
    14.2 Players on their feet
    A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.

    Law 19: Touch and Lineout
    19.7 Incorrect throw-in
    A player must not intentionally or repeatedly throw the ball in not straight.

    Law 19: Touch and Lineout
    19.14 Offside when taking part in the lineout
    The referee must penalise any player who, intentionally or not, moves into an offside position without trying to win possession or tackle an opponent.

    Law 20: Scrum
    20.1 Forming a scrum
    A team must not intentionally delay forming a scrum.

    Law 21: Penalty and Free Kicks
    21.7 What the opposing team must do at a penalty kick
    The opposing team must not do anything to delay the penalty kick or obstruct the kicker. They must not intentionally take, throw or kick the ball out of reach of the kicker or the kicker’s team mates.

    Law 21: Penalty and Free Kicks
    21.8 What options the opposing team have at a free kick
    The opposing team must not do anything to delay the free kick or obstruct the kicker. They must not intentionally take, throw or kick the ball out of reach of the kicker or the kicker’s team mates.

    Law 22: In-Goal
    22.17 Misconduct or unfair play in in-goal
    When a player charges or intentionally obstructs an opponent in the in-goal who has just kicked the ball, the opponent’s team may choose to take the penalty kick either in the field of play, 5 metres from the goal line opposite the place of infringement, or where the ball landed.

    Law 10: Foul Play
    10.2 Unfair play
    Intentionally Offending.

    Law 11: Offside and Onside in General Play
    11.3 Being put onside by opponents
    Intentionally touches ball.


    Of course, for high tackles it's different

    Law Application Guidelines
    Dangerous tackles (high tackles)
    Referees and Citing Commissioners should not make their decisions based on what they consider was the intention of the offending player. Their decision should be based on an objective assessment (as per Law 10.4(e)) of the overall circumstances of the tackle.

  9. #19

    Referees in England
    Phil E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Staffordshire and Royal Navy
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    22 Jan 08
    Posts
    14,465
    Thanks (Received)
    109
    Likes (Received)
    967
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    You're playing with words. Those are all intentions that are discerned by actions.

    If you pull down a maul, you are deemed to have done it deliberately.
    Do you know any referees who see a player pull down a maul and then say "I don't think he intended to do that", of course not, it doesn't happen. We judge on actions (he pulled the maul down), not intentions (I don't know if he meant to do it).

    Anyway, I have made my point.
    I'm out.

    Follow my Award Winning blog The Rugby Ref


  10. #20

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    LSRFUR
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    14,711
    Thanks (Received)
    100
    Likes (Received)
    1368

    Default Re: Sale v Leicester Yellow Card?

    no, you are repeating a mantra 'we don't judge on intentions' that is manifestly in opposition to the Laws and to reality, where we judge on intention very frequently

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •