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Thread: Same Old.......

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    They won't come out and say they're prejudiced against age because they're not allowed, but the reality is the higher the age the lower the ROI! Get used to it. I could bet you that if you had 2 equal referees in every way, then the opportunities will go to the younger one.

    ('They' being the unions. Their priority is the young ones. They will get the opportunities over the older more reliable ones. The oldies are there just to make up the numbers.).

    Although I sound bitter on it, I'm not, as I know the future of the game relies on the younger ones coming through. The younglings of today need more 'hugs and cuddles' to feel they're valued and so are pampered just that little bit more to hang about.

    I agree with you menace, totally understand the logic behind backing the younger refs and fast tracking them, but yes, the older ones need just as much encouragement in their game as well! I know it's difficult to keep everyone happy, all of the time and it doesn't seem logical or right that refs generally get graded up one grade every year sort of automatically until level 8. IMHO there should be a buddy system operating all the time so that even old gits like me are encouraged and felt valued.

  2. #12

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Browner, you're right of course. I think it threw me a bit as the last few matches I have had were relatively straightforward in this area. I guess part of it is knowing whether it is ok to let a shout of "knock on ref" go by you or pull someone up and probably the answer is not always the same (however much I would like it to be). Then there was the guy bawling at me saying he was being held back at the scrum (he was actually but it was of course the other side of me)..............

    The game would be fine if it wasn't for the people........

  3. #13

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Browner, do you not feel that is a bit lenient? That is 5 steps for managing dissent. Would you say 5 opportunities to stop the back chat for a team before YC is too many? Bearing in mind that could be per side.

  4. #14

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Taffy View Post
    I agree with you menace, totally understand the logic behind backing the younger refs and fast tracking them, but yes, the older ones need just as much encouragement in their game as well! I know it's difficult to keep everyone happy, all of the time and it doesn't seem logical or right that refs generally get graded up one grade every year sort of automatically until level 8. IMHO there should be a buddy system operating all the time so that even old gits like me are encouraged and felt valued.
    Not all young refs are "so called fast tracked" and what exactly do you mean by fast-tracked ? What is you definition of young ?
    Refs are not generally upgraded year by year up to L8 in my (or my Society's L9, 10 & 11s) experience and I am Chair of both Society and Federation Grading Committees, and involved in nomination of L5s to Group, so see the whoe process end to end up to Panel.

    If you want a buddy system then define it, propose it to your Society Committee, set it up and run it.

    All referees in our Society are valued and encouraged, and the bulk of matches are at L9-12 - I appoint equally, and for new season 1 refs with bias, all of our Match Observers/Coaches.

    Referees with identified high potential in management, game awareness, law knowledge, and fitness, along with proven commitment and reliability are indeed flagged for advancement and in some cases make rapid progress. It is the same for players and coaches in rugby, and indeed many other sports. In some cases we have 40+ yrs referees who start and have high potential, and they are given every assistance to progress, but knowing they are unlikely to get further than L8 and possibly 7 or even 6 in exceptional circumstances.

    The progression up the grades is not a linear one but exponential across all aspects listed above.

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Quote Originally Posted by jonesp92 View Post
    Browner, do you not feel that is a bit lenient? That is 5 steps for managing dissent. Would you say 5 opportunities to stop the back chat for a team before YC is too many? Bearing in mind that could be per side.
    Hi jonesp
    I said ( in green) , A, T ,P&TW , YC

    I make that x3 before the YC , how did you read 5?

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Taffy View Post
    Browner, you're right of course. I think it threw me a bit as the last few matches I have had were relatively straightforward in this area. I guess part of it is knowing whether it is ok to let a shout of "knock on ref" go by you or pull someone up and probably the answer is not always the same (however much I would like it to be). Then there was the guy bawling at me saying he was being held back at the scrum (he was actually but it was of course the other side of me)..............

    The game would be fine if it wasn't for the people........
    No, Taffy, can't agree there....it is all about the people and their competitiveness.

    Appeals like knock-on is kinda natural and reactionary, and if non demanding its mainly ignored, albeit an irritation. Generally in matches once players gain confidence in my ability they mostly desist.

    Bawling needs a firm admonishment, failure to do so signals weakness and is infectious , it will undermine all that you set out to do. Stamp it out.

  7. #17

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Thomas View Post
    Not all young refs are "so called fast tracked" and what exactly do you mean by fast-tracked ? What is you definition of young ?
    Refs are not generally upgraded year by year up to L8 in my (or my Society's L9, 10 & 11s) experience and I am Chair of both Society and Federation Grading Committees, and involved in nomination of L5s to Group, so see the whoe process end to end up to Panel.

    If you want a buddy system then define it, propose it to your Society Committee, set it up and run it.

    All referees in our Society are valued and encouraged, and the bulk of matches are at L9-12 - I appoint equally, and for new season 1 refs with bias, all of our Match Observers/Coaches.

    Referees with identified high potential in management, game awareness, law knowledge, and fitness, along with proven commitment and reliability are indeed flagged for advancement and in some cases make rapid progress. It is the same for players and coaches in rugby, and indeed many other sports. In some cases we have 40+ yrs referees who start and have high potential, and they are given every assistance to progress, but knowing they are unlikely to get further than L8 and possibly 7 or even 6 in exceptional circumstances.

    The progression up the grades is not a linear one but exponential across all aspects listed above.
    From my view on the sidelines of the grading procedures, I agree entirely with all that.

    I have mentioned before that in changing from A, B, C grades we lost a useful way point. Progressing from C1 to B3 meant taking an extra exam and agreeing to a minimal level of commitment. Many referees decided that they were very comfortable at C1, since they would get the occasional B3 game.

    A couple of years ago I analysed apointments to see what games referees were getting. Up to Level 9 (= old C1?) they were mainly gettiong at-grade appointments with a reasonable number one up. Above that, most were getting at-grade with, on the whole, only those expected to go further getting the higher level games. This correlated strongly with the number of teams we had at the higher levels. I seem to remember one year we only had one level 6 team in Gloucestershire, which made life tough for our handful of Level 6 refs, and had a knock-on effect lower down.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Taffy, we're of similar age, with similar refereeing ambitions.

    I try to remember this when getting a lower level fixture....

    If you use golf courses as an analogy, some are easier, some are difficult, the conditions are also variable, as is your opponent ..... each time you turn up you have to adapt your game to suit what you are faced with. Sometimes you can play the same hole ( read Team) & it plays completely differently and brings a new set of challenges. But in all cases you have to react to what you are presented with otherwise the course beats you!

    I see Lower Level rugby like this, im challenging myself to ' manage the course' ( read - players ) to the best of my ability , whilst ensuring fair application of law. If I achieve that, then its satisfying to me, even if the skill levels of the combatants are lower.

    I do not subscribe to any other view than assessors set out to do their damned best at each match, and to be fair in their role.

    Sure they all have different opinions, but in the main they are not much different to the referees , honest enthusiastic game loving volunteers trying to do their best. Referees should give them as much respect as we expect.

    Assessor bashers are < = > Referee bashers.

    For me Taffy, you'll be a lot more content if you adopt this mindset, irrespective of level.

    I often see L6 referees doing u14 matches .... how do they ever cope with the different skill/standards??!!!??

  9. #19

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Thomas View Post

    The progression up the grades is not a linear one but exponential across all aspects listed above.
    Simon - what does this sentence mean? As a mathematician you've lost me.
    Doucement le matin, pas trop vite le soir!

  10. #20

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    Default Re: Same Old.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuartg View Post
    Simon - what does this sentence mean? As a mathematician you've lost me.
    This is a very general view and quick - as I have a nice Malbec opened and breathing.

    In all cases I assume full law knowledge, and basic empathy for what the players are doing.

    The step from 9 to 8 is not great for a referee with decent management skills, and general fitness.

    The one from 8 to 7 is a big one in management (communication and control) and the game starts getting quicker with fewer errors and much longer cycles of play.

    From 7 to 6 nothing in the matches happens by mistake, the management challenge is much higher, spotting trends, escalating and getting early match compliance are crucial. Speed of play and physicality goes up yet again, so the referee must be physically very fit, and mentally attuned at all times with an all round awareness of everything happening on the pitch, and increasing levels of preventative management.

    At L5 match speed is up again by a significant amount, major challenges at scrum and breakdown are encountered, consistency is essential, 100% accuracy required, and adaptability to tactical changes in the match. More preventative management, quick judgement and decisions, plus very good fitness levels.

    The step up in management, skill and fitness is not simple step each time but increasing at each level, which reflects the standard of players and the games overall.

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