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Thread: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

      
  1. #21

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    Default Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Do I invest in a referee who wasn't passionate enough to ref in his 20s but now is in his 40s, has a greater propensity to (possible) injury, a likely shorter life at the top and has a wife, 4 kids and a mortgage to juggle ... or go with a youngster.
    ... who may soon have a wife,4 kids, mortgage etc etc etc ;-)

    didds

  2. #22

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    Default Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    is anyone going to point out the big pink elephant in the room? that is - the system does not increase the longevity of referees one single bit?

    example: mr. 24y/o winger...very fast, the look they want, etc. "hey winger...you should referee...the way you run, your personality, your intelligence, your beep score...you could do very well...you ARE the right age...have you ever thought how cool it would be to referee on the big stage?" "hell yeah," says mr. winger and off he goes...trades in his shorts for society shorts and within 1 year he's elevated past the 30's and 40's guys to a list and expected to really catch on - because he has "what it takes."

    now mr. winger doesn't make it very high. most don't. well...hardly any ever do. now is mr. winger going to settle into his say grade 6, start doing the normal things referees do, join the ranks and hang out with the guys he passed by on his way up the ladder?

    nope - he quits.

    so look at the end result. wasted time, effort and funds. pissed off the middle aged guys, some quit and some swear to never support the system that passed them over due to ageism.

    now there are less referees and less middle aged guys willing to help "the system." so back to the search - identify another handful, tell them they are great - repeat the 2-3 year process.

    I have seen it happen over and over and over in the US and (not nearly as frequent) in ontario. if there is data supporting the current system showing that it is in fact successful - please post.

    when I was in scotland in '12 I met two young guys that were already doing lower level internationals. I was really looking forward to seeing them on tv some day. in '13 when mcmenemy came over to toronto I asked him about the young men - he said they both capped out and quit the gig. one went on to work in the family biz and the other went back to playing. then I heard that 2 guys around 40 that I had met gave it up due to the "system."

    explain to me how all of this makes sense?
    Last edited by ddjamo; 19-12-14 at 14:12.

  3. #23

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    Default Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    but not to be one that criticizes without helping...

    why not have clearly defined pathways? make it known that the younger guys will do X as they progress...but the older guys get to do X. and at that point the best is identified and eligible to do X. also, what's wrong with the young guys working the line for the senior refs? if I were 25 I would much prefer to learn from a guy like womble than a clipboard as an example. then the young guys learn to respect the work and time the senior refs have put in. the current system (at least in the US) draws a very distinct line between senior refs and the hyper promoted young guys which leads to many issues. the system is not sustainable IMO.

  4. #24

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    Default Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    ... or how about the young centre who was fast tracked and became arguably the best referee in the world? (Chris White)

    Obviously most will not realistically expect that, not even Chris, but we need some form of data rather than anecdotal evidence.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  5. #25

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    Default Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    Jamo is (was?) President of his Union. As am I. While anecdotal, I have the emails and the club feedback and the attrition data and the quotes from USA R to validate our position. Rather than type it all out, can I just ask you to trust us on this.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
    Marcus Aurelius

    Man may do as he will; he may not will what he wills
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

  6. #26

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    Arrow Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daftmedic View Post
    Oh, YES he did!
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
    John Henry Newman

  7. #27

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    Default Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    Jamo is (was?) President of his Union. As am I. While anecdotal, I have the emails and the club feedback and the attrition data and the quotes from USA R to validate our position. Rather than type it all out, can I just ask you to trust us on this.
    Ditto

  8. #28

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    Default Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    I was busting myself worrying about grades and promotion, and it was starting to show in my refereeing. Getting a bit fussy, and constantly tweaking and refining according to the last piece of advice I got. Someone sat me down and just told me to relax and referee my natural game, and enjoy it for what you get out of it. If you get promoted, great. If not, great as well, because you'll be happy and refereeing at the height of your potential. I thought on that, and took that approach with me.
    Couldn't agree more. I had exactly this discussion with Biggsy (UK refs will know) some time ago, and trite though it sounds, it was the best piece of coaching I ever received. My style became more relaxed, players responded positively and stodgy progress turned into very rapid progress. Similarly, the first significant step forward I made was after refereeing in Dubai where I had an epileptic fit on the morning of the first day of the Sevens and proceeded to referee in something of a semi-conscious haze for the next three days, ending up with the fourth ranking final. When my brain was too mushy to think about all the detail, I relaxed and refereed my best. NOTE: refereeing following a fit is a BAD thing unless you've been invited to Dubai and aren't going to miss the chance for all the tea in China!

  9. #29

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    Default Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    Jamo is (was?) President of his Union. As am I. While anecdotal, I have the emails and the club feedback and the attrition data and the quotes from USA R to validate our position. Rather than type it all out, can I just ask you to trust us on this.
    If you have been collecting and analysing data, that's great. As reported it sounded anecdotal (more interesting that way than dry statistics - unless you happen to be a statistician!)
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Glass Ceiling in Progression beyond Local Society?

    http://www.englandrugby.com/news/fea...ch-and-player/

    Any 15 yro that can competently handle fixtures involvong the 2nd xv of a L4 club, must have ability beyond his years.

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