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Thread: Is it a knock-on?

      
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    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Is it a knock-on?

    From the Lienster v. Ulster game 1/3/2015

    Ball is grubbed in behind the defenders. Attacking player seeks to collect the ball but instead it comes off his shin forward. Another dribble and the player dives on it in goal for the "score".

    On the replay it may have touched his finger tips as it rebounds off his shin. Referee asks the TMO: Did it touch his hands?" (Pretty sure those were his exact words) TMO replies "Yes, it touched his hand(s))"

    Peeep! "No try, knock-on."

    I have a problem with this call. What happened did not meet the definition for a knock-on as the ball was not played forward by the hands but by the shin. I know the definitions also add "... or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward .... etc, etc." I believe that it is not a KO unless the propulsion forward comes from the hand/arm.

    Thoughts on this?
    Last edited by ChrisR; 04-01-15 at 16:01.

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    Rugby Club Member Treadmore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is it a knock-on?

    I saw the incident and agreed with the call. Is propulsion forward by the hand really required for a knock-on?

    Another example might be an attempted catch from a high kick: ball lands in would-be catcher's hands bounces/hit backwards towards chest and bounces forwards off chest to ground. Wouldn't you call that a knock-on?

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    Default Re: Is it a knock-on?

    I think the call sounds good, if you are instead seeking to dissect hand contact differently then its an added complication that only makes the whole subject more difficult.

    So, for the purpose of this, " went forward after contact with the hand" works for me.

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    Default Re: Is it a knock-on?

    Good call by TMO and referee

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    Default Re: Is it a knock-on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Thomas View Post
    Good call by TMO and referee
    Agreed as, by definition, the player was not in control of the ball with his hands and lost it forward
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    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is it a knock-on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Treadmore View Post
    I saw the incident and agreed with the call. Is propulsion forward by the hand really required for a knock-on?

    Another example might be an attempted catch from a high kick: ball lands in would-be catcher's hands bounces/hit backwards towards chest and bounces forwards off chest to ground. Wouldn't you call that a knock-on?
    Disagree on your "another example". If the propulsion forward is from the chest, not the hands/arms, then it's not a KO in my book.

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    Default Re: Is it a knock-on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    Disagree on your "another example". If the propulsion forward is from the chest, not the hands/arms, then it's not a KO in my book.
    If chest only - hands nowhere near - I agree but with attempt to catch first? I'm sure previous advice on here was call knock-on.

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    Default Re: Is it a knock-on?

    "If you don't drop it, I won't give it."

    Simples!

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    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is it a knock-on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    "If you don't drop it, I won't give it."

    Simples!
    Ball wasn't dropped. Contact with finger tips after/as it was kicked forward. I know that this is an extremely rare event but the question remains: For a KO does the ball need ti be impelled forward by the hand/arm?

    So far: Me = Yes, everyone else = No.

    From a local game several years ago: Red FB gets a line break, 2 on 1 with opponent and wing in support, pass to wing goes through his hands and comes off his knee into goal, grounded for the try. Referee rules "No KO, ball bounced off knee, not hands". Would you agree with the call?

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    Default Re: Is it a knock-on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    From a local game several years ago: Red FB gets a line break, 2 on 1 with opponent and wing in support, pass to wing goes through his hands and comes off his knee into goal, grounded for the try. Referee rules "No KO, ball bounced off knee, not hands". Would you agree with the call?
    I wouldn't agree --
    - if he doesn't try and catch it, but deliberately knees it -- fair enough
    - but if he tries to catch it, touches it and it spills forward I'm going to call a knock on

    trying to judge which parts of his body it hit, in which order, and what direction is a fools errand, in my mind. It can't be that subtle. Key thing is : he fumbled and it went forwards.

    I think that's how people understand the game to be played: and the fac that you remember that particualr decision years later suggests it was a wrong one..
    Last edited by crossref; 05-01-15 at 13:01.

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