Page 1 of 8 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 78

Thread: Better Scrums

      
  1. #1

    Referees in England
    wolfie's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    RN, D and W
    Grade
    9
    Join Date
    22 Oct 07
    Posts
    73
    Thanks (Received)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default Better Scrums

    After a crappy game this weekend, where one scrum totally dominated everything and having listened to Jeff Probyn on Sport 5, Sunday say – “the way to improve scrums was to get the ref out of it and let them get on with it, just make sure they don’t stand to far apart to avoid charging on engagement”

    Q – Who makes sure they don’t stand to far apart if the ref isn’t involved?



    I have anyway had a thought about it and come up with the following:

    1. The winning side in the scrum is also subject to the “use it” law as for ruck and maul and will then have to use the ball within 5 secs avoiding the constant pushing until the losing scrum collapses and a penalty is awarded.

    2. A try cannot be scored at the base of a scrum by push over by what normally is the No.8 keeping it at his feet and diving on it.



    It means:

    · The scrum will be purely to restart a game fairly and less opportunity for penalties.

    · There will still be contesting for the ball in the scrum.

    · The stronger more skilful scrum will still be able to benefit.

    · The ball will be recycled quicker enabling more attacking running rugby and not endless scrums.

    · If a defending FR stands up once the ball has been one, it will not matter as the winning team will have 5 sec to “use it”.

    · A try can still be scored if the defending team manage to win the strike but are pushed over the try line and an attacking player dives in to touch down.

    · Because there is not as much opportunity for gaining a penalty, front rows will just get on and scrum.


    Thoughts/ Discuss!!!
    Wolfie

  2. #2
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Level 3
    Join Date
    03 Sep 14
    Posts
    3,330
    Thanks (Received)
    29
    Likes (Received)
    507

    Default Re: Better Scrums

    THere are plenty who would say that the pack driving over the goal line for the 8 to score IS attacking play. Remember there are more ways to attack than just chucking it to the girls for them to run around like headless chickens.

  3. #3

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    9,667
    Thanks (Received)
    63
    Likes (Received)
    930

    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Remember - there is no obvious issue at the grass roots level - see posts passim.

    When was the last time you saw a push over try at elite level? Hopw often does it really happen? So they can have the law/rule/reg. But leave the grassroots alone.

    Didds (who LOVES scrummaging)

  4. #4

    Referees in New Zealand
    Ian_Cook's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired player and referee
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    12 Jul 05
    Posts
    13,306
    Thanks (Received)
    110
    Likes (Received)
    1495

    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfie View Post
    1. The winning side in the scrum is also subject to the “use it” law as for ruck and maul and will then have to use the ball within 5 secs avoiding the constant pushing until the losing scrum collapses and a penalty is awarded.

    2. A try cannot be scored at the base of a scrum by push over by what normally is the No.8 keeping it at his feet and diving on it.

    It means:

    · The scrum will be purely to restart a game fairly and less opportunity for penalties.

    · There will still be contesting for the ball in the scrum.

    · The stronger more skilful scrum will still be able to benefit.

    · The ball will be recycled quicker enabling more attacking running rugby and not endless scrums.

    · If a defending FR stands up once the ball has been one, it will not matter as the winning team will have 5 sec to “use it”.

    · A try can still be scored if the defending team manage to win the strike but are pushed over the try line and an attacking player dives in to touch down.

    · Because there is not as much opportunity for gaining a penalty, front rows will just get on and scrum.


    Thoughts/ Discuss!!!
    I cannot agree with 2.

    However, I would go along with 1. in part.

    Rather than use it, treat the whole thing similar to a maul.

    1. The team winning the hook has a limited amount of time to get the scrum moving. If they cannot get forward motion within five seconds of the ball being hooked, then the SH must clear the ball from the scrum. If they get it moving, and are stopped then they MUST clear the ball within 5 seconds. Not clearing the ball within five seconds, or attempting to restart the forward motion of the scrum results in a scrum turnover. This would allow a team to score a pushover try

    2. Why do we offer an incentive to the non-throwing in team disrupt the scrum by rewarding them for wheeling it. Isn't the scrum supposed to be a straight pushing contest? IMO, we should make ALL wheeling of the scrum a FK offence.

  5. #5
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    Cambridge and St Neots
    Grade
    I am a Fan
    Join Date
    08 Mar 11
    Posts
    1,380
    Thanks (Received)
    22
    Likes (Received)
    217

    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Why penalize the wheel at all.
    Why not go back to resetting the same scrum with the same put in.
    The defense then has no incentive to wheel.

    I might remove the requirement for 8 players to remain in the scrum and allow a player who loses their bind to retire behind the rear foot and regain their bind, or retire five metres and join the girls without penalty. If they fail to do so and interfere with play, then they are offside. You could argue that the mark should be at the backs offside line.

    Camquin

  6. #6

    Referees in Holland


    Soc/Assoc
    NSRS
    Grade
    Newish
    Join Date
    20 Jan 11
    Posts
    1,300
    Thanks (Received)
    16
    Likes (Received)
    75

    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    Why penalize the wheel at all.
    Why not go back to resetting the same scrum with the same put in.
    The defense then has no incentive to wheel.
    The law was changed in the first because the attack had a great incentive to wheel - no real loss if swung past 90 degrees, but putting the opposition back row in a poor position to defend.

    It is still the case that the opposition back row is in a poor position to defend if the scrum is wheeled "almost" 90. But the side putting the ball in tends not to want to let it get that far, for some reason, with the law as it stands.

    An unfortunate side-effect is that the art of hooking has been all but lost.

  7. #7

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    9,667
    Thanks (Received)
    63
    Likes (Received)
    930

    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    Why penalize the wheel at all.
    Why not go back to resetting the same scrum with the same put in.
    The defense then has no incentive to wheel.
    except of course they do wrt tactical moving of the ball/backrow ...

    and now the feeding side can kill time by winning the ball and wheeling...

    didds

  8. #8
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    14 Jul 10
    Posts
    3,227
    Thanks (Received)
    33
    Likes (Received)
    320

    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Agree with Ian and Camquin that a wheeled scrum should not be a turnover. This removes the incentive for the defenders to wheel with the sole objective of getting the turnover. I think that didds's concern about time wasting is a lesser issue. Yes, a team could resort to that (and I understand that has happened and was a reason for the change) but every reset scrum is a turnover risk.

    I don't agree that scrums are onlyl about being a pushing contest. An agile, skilled pack should be able to use the power of the opponent to wheel the scrum to limit the opponents options. The reasons given for penalizing wheeling are fatuous and belong in the thread "Making it up".

    This is a personal pet peeve so I can only say sorry about

  9. #9
    Banned

    Soc/Assoc
    n/a
    Grade
    < player
    Join Date
    20 Jan 12
    Posts
    6,000
    Thanks (Received)
    19
    Likes (Received)
    251

    Default Re: Better Scrums

    I'd, disincentivise the defensive wheel >90°
    First occasion reset re-feed by the team in possession.
    2nd occasion give FK to team in possession.

    Both assume a straight feed !!!!!!!!

  10. #10

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    9,667
    Thanks (Received)
    63
    Likes (Received)
    930

    Default Re: Better Scrums

    how do you know its a defensive wheel?

    didds

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •